[ale] OT: H1B

tfreeman at intel.digichem.net tfreeman at intel.digichem.net
Tue Dec 17 14:40:58 EST 2002


On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1) wrote:

> India is exactly in this situation, where it is not able to decide whether
> to move forward with reforms or stick to age old customs and be satisfied
> with local economy. If they allow liberalization, India will have similar
> problems US is facing today. If it does't allow, it will remain backward for
> another half century. I guess my point is, it is not just the US's problem,
> other nation's are facing the same problem. I guess there are advantages and
> disadvatages for the global economy. 

Which is as it should be - advantages and disadvantages. There will be 
changes, which are usually seen as unpleasant, and opportunities. H1B, 
liberal visa policies, and illegal immigrants are not going to change this 
character. Nor will easing emission standards, safety standards, RTK 
standards or a bazillion other apparent headaches business opperates under 
in the US, and frequently not when on foreign soil. Giving a tax break to 
the "investment class" or rich if you prefer isn't going to help either, 
as the perceived investment opportunities are largely overseas. Of course, 
a period of being perceived as the dominant player in a majority of 
catagories of business, technology, etc, does mean that the _only_ 
relative movement for this society is down... 

I suspect that neither government intervention or collective barganing or 
other group action can do other than slow the trend, as I suspect it is 
driven in large measure by technical changes in transportation and 
communication with secondary imputus from economies of scale.  _IF_ the 
desire is to have local economies, we would have to change from 1500ft 
bulk carriers at sea to 200ft sailing vessels carying two or three times 
the crew of the modern freighter. Air freight will need to be strickly 
out. And standards of living may be expected to go down, or so I'm told. 
Certainly fresh produce from the other side of the world will be out.

The really weird thing is that all the evidence I have seen to date 
suggests that American labor is harder working, frequently more efficient 
(due to training btw), and takes less paid time off than any other labor 
force in the world. Yet since before Reagan at least, the workers of this 
country have been derided as inept, lazy, thieving, whining, and overpaid. 
Yet the destructiveness of the top (whom we are supposed to admire and 
emulate) seems to me vastly greater. As long as there is no hint of sexual 
impropriety, if you are "important enough", it seems that you can lie, 
cheat, steal, and what ever and be rewarded for your antisocial behavior.

Now for an assertion, in the form of a prediction. The US economy will 
feel better and grow again when the financial/management peoples get off 
their special places, get into the trenches with their production/line 
people, and take at least the same risks as the majority of their 
employees and their customers.

> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ahuitzot at mindspring.com [mailto:ahuitzot at mindspring.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:12 AM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> 
> 
> And my point is, if we keep outsourcing there will not be anyone left in
> america that would be able to afford these "cheap" software (or what ever)
> products, because none of us will be left employed!  Unless of course you do
> not mind working for $7 an hr at arbys with no health insurance (or a very
> minimum).
> 
> In this way the "Global" economy makes no sense.  You cut out all the
> "Expensive" workers here, and there is noone left with enough money to buy
> your product, except maybe other companies.  Hmm. Ponder that for awhile....
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:17:57 -0500 "ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1)"
> <reddyraja.annareddy at hp.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > I am a H1B holder working in US. US has no
> > option left except to brings H1
> > and also outsource the work. Let us see the
> > reasons behind the argument.
> > Europe is already having good software
> > engineering background. 
> > 
> > 1. Competition among companies has increased a
> > lot. If you don't provide
> > software for cheap, some one will provide it
> > and take over your market. The
> > market is now a global economy. You can no
> > loner think locally. Suppose you
> > produce the software locally. In order for you
> > to compete globally, you have
> > to have a reasonable price. Given the emrging
> > developing nations like India,
> > China, they can write software at a much lower
> > cost compared to when the
> > software is written in US. In order for US
> > software companies to survice,
> > the only way out is to be part of the Global
> > economy and invest in India,
> > otherwise they are going to loose the
> > competition. If you see Intel, Sun,
> > IBM, HP, Ford, GM, GE, all these companies have
> > office in India. Thousands
> > of sofwtware professionals are working in these
> > companies to prodeuce
> > cheaper software.
> > 2. If the software is cheap, the benefits you
> > are going to get are
> >    a.Lower insurance in most of the cases.
> > Because if they by expensive
> > software, they have to charge more insurance.
> >    b. Platics and Platic goods: Cheaper to
> > produce in China compared to any
> > other country in the world. If this is not so,
> > you have to buy the same
> > pieice for $10 if made in US as compared to $1
> > if made in China. This means
> > the inflation will go up. The cost of living
> > will go up. Our salary will not
> > be sufficient to survive.
> >    c. Even companies in India are shifting
> > their manufacturing bases to
> > china for cheaper platic goods. Economy is
> > truly Global.
> > 3. Ireland a small country amounts major
> > software exports in all over the
> > world.
> > 4. The companies not only have to survive, they
> > have to make profit.
> > Othewise invertors will not invest and the
> > stock goes down. US economy is
> > driven by stock value as compared to a real
> > value of the company. A company
> > is what an anlyst see as it is. It is not the
> > company the employess are made
> > of etc.
> > 
> > 5. I think going forwared, the days are going
> > to be tough. India and China
> > also have tough tasks ahead.
> > 
> > 6. I think, US is doing what it is supposed to
> > do(Smart). It is the mart
> > move in the Global economy to keep inflation
> > low and economy moving.
> > Otherwise there will me more layoffs etc.
> > 
> > 7. Why do we buy Japanese goods specifically
> > Cars etc. Becuase they last
> > long. The economy is truly global.
> > 
> > 8. I think the next century belongs to those,
> > who produce goods at a cheaper
> > cost. Does this country ever producess like
> > this. There is a point at which
> > this country has to yield to other developing
> > nations. As the econmomy
> > becomes global, more and more developing
> > countries will take part keeping
> > the cost of goods down and keeping the
> > inlfation down.
> > 
> > 9. We have to figure out new ways to survive
> > ourselves. Other wise we are
> > going to loose the cause.
> > 
> > 10. The reson why US is developed beacause of
> > the intense cold war. They are
> > forced to develop.
> >   For any nation to survive, the people should
> > not rest. For people not to
> > rest,there has to be issues.
> > 
> > --cheers.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ray Knight
> > [mailto:audilover at atlantabroadband.com]
> > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:58 PM
> > To: ale at ale.org
> > Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 2002-12-16 at 15:58, Mazukna, Thomas
> > wrote:
> > > Geoffrey wrote:
> > > > I don't know if they do or not.  Bottom
> > line for me is, I see too
> > many 
> > > > VERY GOOD technical U.S. Citizens out of
> > work, and therefore think
> > that 
> > > > H1Bs should be stopped for until this
> > problem is resolved.
> > > 
> > > Stopping H1b will not solve the problem.
> > Period. But it is convenient
> > to
> > > blame someone else instead.
> > > 
> > > > Again, if there are citizens who are
> > capable of performing the
> > function, 
> > > > they should get the first shot.
> > > 
> > > And it is in 99% of the cases. Have you
> > looked at job offerings? 99%
> > say "No
> > > H1b sponsorship" on the first line. 
> > > 
> > > If you are in good health and can not find a
> > job in US you are doing
> > > something wrong. Take a look around there are
> > plenty of jobs, but it
> > will
> > > not be 100k+ consulting gig, but you will not
> > starve to death. H1b on
> > the
> > > other hand once lost the job, must leave the
> > country immediately,
> > since you
> > > can not work for any other company.
> > > 
> >  
> > A risk the H1B visa holder should have been
> > aware of before taking the
> > job.  If you can't live by the rules of the
> > visa don't accept it. 
> > Besides most H1B visa holders are creating
> > "brain drain" problems in
> > their home country.  If they stayed home and
> > put there knowledge to work
> > they would not have the same standard of living
> > they enjoy in the U.S.,
> > but would be improving the future of their own
> > country.
> > 
> > Ray
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> 

-- 
=============================================
If you think Education is expensive
Try Ignorance
                   Author Unknown
============================================

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
Ale at ale.org
http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale






More information about the Ale mailing list