[ale] OT: H1B

[Geoffrey]

Mazukna, Thomas wrote:
> then you have to sell that BMW and go work for 40k/y as H1B does or find
> another field.
> everybody is affected by economy downturn, and everybody have to change.
> IT market was oversaturated by people who finish 3 month VB course and call
> themselves software developer. I do not see any threat to people with good
> skills and broad skill set college degree and experience.

15+ years in software development, BS in CS, and a damn good programmer. 
  Talk to me in 6 months....

> US is like a gold mine for people from less fortunate countries. This is a
> land of opportunities, do not be afraid to take them. I would have stayed
> back home if I had a decent life there. 

I don't mind helping folks out, give them the shirt off my back, but 
when there's no longer a shirt on your back....

> What I see is that immigrants/H1bs and even illegals put in 150% effort,
> hard work look for opportunities and succeed in creating a better life for
> themselves. 
> Some citizens on the other hand whine and try to blame everything on someone
> else. Get your ass of the couch and do something. people get spoiled so
> fast.
> I am not judging anybody, this is just a tendency I see here.

Yes, you are.  You've pretty much prejudge a large segment of the world 
population, and I for one, don't appreciated it.

I've seen immigrants who do give the 150% you speak of.  I've seen 
others sit back expecting the free ride.

Hell, they're about to give illegal immigrants in the state of Georgia 
drivers license.  What's with that?  If they show up to get a drivers 
license, they should find themselves on their way back where they came from.

I've seen lazy us citizens as well, and I've seen people like me, who 
put in 10+ hour days.  Yes, I've been rewarded for my efforts, only one 
wrung above me in the technical universe.

Further, the non-english speaking folks of this country continue to put 
a burden on the whole system.  Educational facilities don't have the 
funds or people to deal with it.

I don't go to France, Spain or Germany and expect people to speak 
English.  The same should go for people who come to this country, 
particularily if they are going to stay and take away the jobs of those 
who are already here.


> 
> Tomas
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ahuitzot at mindspring.com [mailto:ahuitzot at mindspring.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:12 PM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> 
> 
> And my point is, if we keep outsourcing there will not be anyone left in
> america that would be able to afford these "cheap" software (or what ever)
> products, because none of us will be left employed!  Unless of course you do
> not mind working for $7 an hr at arbys with no health insurance (or a very
> minimum).
> 
> In this way the "Global" economy makes no sense.  You cut out all the
> "Expensive" workers here, and there is noone left with enough money to buy
> your product, except maybe other companies.  Hmm. Ponder that for awhile....
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:17:57 -0500 "ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1)"
> <reddyraja.annareddy at hp.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi,
>>I am a H1B holder working in US. US has no
>>option left except to brings H1
>>and also outsource the work. Let us see the
>>reasons behind the argument.
>>Europe is already having good software
>>engineering background. 
>>
>>1. Competition among companies has increased a
>>lot. If you don't provide
>>software for cheap, some one will provide it
>>and take over your market. The
>>market is now a global economy. You can no
>>loner think locally. Suppose you
>>produce the software locally. In order for you
>>to compete globally, you have
>>to have a reasonable price. Given the emrging
>>developing nations like India,
>>China, they can write software at a much lower
>>cost compared to when the
>>software is written in US. In order for US
>>software companies to survice,
>>the only way out is to be part of the Global
>>economy and invest in India,
>>otherwise they are going to loose the
>>competition. If you see Intel, Sun,
>>IBM, HP, Ford, GM, GE, all these companies have
>>office in India. Thousands
>>of sofwtware professionals are working in these
>>companies to prodeuce
>>cheaper software.
>>2. If the software is cheap, the benefits you
>>are going to get are
>>   a.Lower insurance in most of the cases.
>>Because if they by expensive
>>software, they have to charge more insurance.
>>   b. Platics and Platic goods: Cheaper to
>>produce in China compared to any
>>other country in the world. If this is not so,
>>you have to buy the same
>>pieice for $10 if made in US as compared to $1
>>if made in China. This means
>>the inflation will go up. The cost of living
>>will go up. Our salary will not
>>be sufficient to survive.
>>   c. Even companies in India are shifting
>>their manufacturing bases to
>>china for cheaper platic goods. Economy is
>>truly Global.
>>3. Ireland a small country amounts major
>>software exports in all over the
>>world.
>>4. The companies not only have to survive, they
>>have to make profit.
>>Othewise invertors will not invest and the
>>stock goes down. US economy is
>>driven by stock value as compared to a real
>>value of the company. A company
>>is what an anlyst see as it is. It is not the
>>company the employess are made
>>of etc.
>>
>>5. I think going forwared, the days are going
>>to be tough. India and China
>>also have tough tasks ahead.
>>
>>6. I think, US is doing what it is supposed to
>>do(Smart). It is the mart
>>move in the Global economy to keep inflation
>>low and economy moving.
>>Otherwise there will me more layoffs etc.
>>
>>7. Why do we buy Japanese goods specifically
>>Cars etc. Becuase they last
>>long. The economy is truly global.
>>
>>8. I think the next century belongs to those,
>>who produce goods at a cheaper
>>cost. Does this country ever producess like
>>this. There is a point at which
>>this country has to yield to other developing
>>nations. As the econmomy
>>becomes global, more and more developing
>>countries will take part keeping
>>the cost of goods down and keeping the
>>inlfation down.
>>
>>9. We have to figure out new ways to survive
>>ourselves. Other wise we are
>>going to loose the cause.
>>
>>10. The reson why US is developed beacause of
>>the intense cold war. They are
>>forced to develop.
>>  For any nation to survive, the people should
>>not rest. For people not to
>>rest,there has to be issues.
>>
>>--cheers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Ray Knight
>>[mailto:audilover at atlantabroadband.com]
>>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:58 PM
>>To: ale at ale.org
>>Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 2002-12-16 at 15:58, Mazukna, Thomas
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Geoffrey wrote:
>>>
>>>>I don't know if they do or not.  Bottom
>>
>>line for me is, I see too
>>many 
>>
>>>>VERY GOOD technical U.S. Citizens out of
>>
>>work, and therefore think
>>that 
>>
>>>>H1Bs should be stopped for until this
>>
>>problem is resolved.
>>
>>>Stopping H1b will not solve the problem.
>>
>>Period. But it is convenient
>>to
>>
>>>blame someone else instead.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Again, if there are citizens who are
>>
>>capable of performing the
>>function, 
>>
>>>>they should get the first shot.
>>>
>>>And it is in 99% of the cases. Have you
>>
>>looked at job offerings? 99%
>>say "No
>>
>>>H1b sponsorship" on the first line. 
>>>
>>>If you are in good health and can not find a
>>
>>job in US you are doing
>>
>>>something wrong. Take a look around there are
>>
>>plenty of jobs, but it
>>will
>>
>>>not be 100k+ consulting gig, but you will not
>>
>>starve to death. H1b on
>>the
>>
>>>other hand once lost the job, must leave the
>>
>>country immediately,
>>since you
>>
>>>can not work for any other company.
>>>
>>
>> 
>>A risk the H1B visa holder should have been
>>aware of before taking the
>>job.  If you can't live by the rules of the
>>visa don't accept it. 
>>Besides most H1B visa holders are creating
>>"brain drain" problems in
>>their home country.  If they stayed home and
>>put there knowledge to work
>>they would not have the same standard of living
>>they enjoy in the U.S.,
>>but would be improving the future of their own
>>country.
>>
>>Ray
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Ale mailing list
>>Ale at ale.org
>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>_______________________________________________
>>Ale mailing list
>>Ale at ale.org
>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> 
> 

-- 
Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net

The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
Think about it...

_______________________________________________
Ale mailing list
Ale at ale.org
http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale