[ale] Outdoor Wifi - Water - The missing Detail?

Thu Jul 1 19:04:43 EDT 2021

Please report what you end up using and how well it works.

Bob

On Thu, Jul 01, 2021 at 01:06:28PM -0500, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote:
> Keeping the balls in the air...
> 
> https://www.tp-link.com/us/support/faq/1226/ is a tech support page
> which looks like exactly what we are trying to do. Except they have
> cows involved.  Although we do have a petting zoo.
> 
> The CPE510 is about $50 from a variety of places, including Amazon
> Free Shipping & Returns.
> 
> There is references in their forums to using EAP225-Outdoor as the
> access point at the farm end.  These appear to be $79 on Amazon with
> Free Returns.
> 
> I have emailed them about range.  Their reply indicated 15km in
> "ideal conditions".   We likely have at least one tree, and the top
> of the tent, and maybe a bouncy house.   So, I've asked for some
> clarification, without mentioning the 500 ft threshold.   IF we
> mount these high up on the building, and up on a pole at the end of
> the field, it seems like the most results for the least drama, and
> we don't worry about lightning strike on outside CAT6, nor the cost
> of fiber.
> 
> regards,
> 
> Neal
> 
> 
> On 2021-06-28 12:22, Alex Carver via Ale wrote:
> >Yes, water attenuates RF signals.  But that's why you mount the
> >directional AP's ABOVE the people.  You shouldn't be aiming THROUGH the
> >people at all.  Aside from it not working properly, directional access
> >points have more power and you end up needing to do an RF exposure
> >survey.  Put it on a pole and you're fine.
> >
> >
> >On 2021-06-28 10:17, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote:
> >>It takes me a while sometimes.???? So, looking for "wifi loss through
> >>trees", once finds comments which suggest that while wood might not
> >>reduce Wifi, WATER does, and trees and leaves contain water.
> >>
> >>Well, people contain even more water.
> >>
> >>So, it's looking to me like a single directional access point at the
> >>back of the building is doomed.???? It might look like it works,
> >>it might
> >>even test pretty good.?? Empty.
> >>
> >>BUT, put a 60x130 tent in the back field, fill it with 800-1000
> >>people,
> >>put the beer and food lines at the back side, (because grills, beer
> >>trailer, warmers, ice-trailer, etc are all on the back side, and put
> >>volunteers running tablets at table-top level, then each tablet is
> >>trying to get Wifi THROUGH about 40 people.?? Who are
> >>well-beered.???? Just
> >>not going to work.
> >>
> >>Looks like we should indeed run a pair of somethings to get across the
> >>parking lot, then Cat6 to the rear tree line, and then an access point
> >>high up, so that food/beer staff have nothing between them and the
> >>access point.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On 2021-06-28 11:08, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote:
> >>>Thanks.?? Please, keep the ideas coming.???? There were comments about
> >>>power - nope, no conduit, Scout building and rear tent power all come
> >>>from separate lines back to the transformers on the pole.
> >>>
> >>>What I'm getting from the Ubiquiti forum is that UAP-AC-LR-US
> >>>802.11ac
> >>>Long Range Access Point will likely peter out at 300 ft.
> >>>
> >>>Note that the satellite view is stale - the two trees right at the
> >>>back of the church building are gone - they were sending roots
> >>>towards
> >>>the foundation. So, it's a clear shot up to the trees beyond the
> >>>driveway.?? Unclear to me how much a couple of trees at that distance
> >>>can block WiFi.
> >>>
> >>>Responses do suggest that we may have TWO distinct groups to cover or
> >>>not: Vendors in the parking lot, and our beer/food vendors at
> >>>the back
> >>>of the tent.???? The parking lot may have to get tossed over
> >>>the side as
> >>>2nd priority.???? Frankly, I think most of the vendors do other
> >>>festivals, and have worked out how to do their credit cards on their
> >>>phones; they would just rather not spend their data.?? I think cell
> >>>coverage in the parking lot is adequate.
> >>>
> >>>So, if I understand your approach, it involves two NanoStations??? Or
> >>>two NanoStations to get from building to back field, and an access
> >>>point on the field NanoStation to provide the Wifi to the tablets?
> >>>
> >>>regards,
> >>>
> >>>Neal
> >>>
> >>>On 2021-06-28 10:40, Alex Carver via Ale wrote:
> >>>>Just to add fun to the festivities I have a couple of these
> >>>>NanoStations
> >>>>that work very well as PTP bridges:
> >>>>
> >>>>https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-airmax-and-ltu/products/nanostation-loco5ac
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>The radiation pattern is more directional than the UFO-style
> >>>>AP's like
> >>>>the UAP AC so it tends to work better for that purpose.??
> >>>>They're also
> >>>>able to work in a multi-drop configuration so you can have multiple
> >>>>endpoints instead of cable.?? When they're in PTP mode they're not
> >>>>directly accessible with normal WiFi products, the protocol
> >>>>is different
> >>>>so it's harder to have someone "tap" into your connection from a
> >>>>sidelobe.
> >>>>
> >>>>They're also inexpensive at $50 each and rated for outdoor use.
> >>>>
> >>>>These should work at the range you're wanting but you can
> >>>>always go up a
> >>>>bit and get something like this if range really is an issue:
> >>>>
> >>>>https://store.ui.com/collections/operator-airmax-and-ltu/products/litebeam-5ac-long-range
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Built-in dish makes a tighter beam and a lot of range (like several
> >>>>miles in unobstructed LOS).
> >>>>
> >>>>Many options in Ubiquiti's airMAX and airFiber device groups.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On 2021-06-26 09:12, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote:
> >>>>>Thanks to all that replied.???? My goal was to figure out
> >>>>>the options,
> >>>>>and
> >>>>>focus some other people's attention in a productive
> >>>>>direction.???? I do
> >>>>>NOT want to be the expert on this, as on the day, I'm busy
> >>>>>doing sound
> >>>>>or playing music on stage.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I will quickly summarize the high points I've passed on.?? Not to
> >>>>>preclude further comments from the ALE group, which I
> >>>>>value.???? But I'm
> >>>>>gonna let this simmer and see if some other folks pick up the ball.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>WHAT IS THE ENVIRONMENT? You can look at Google Maps for
> >>>>>1826 Killian
> >>>>>Hill road, Lilburn
> >>>>>From back window to the far tree line at back of field: 450ft (137
> >>>>>meters)
> >>>>>From back window to the scout building: 170ft (52 meters)
> >>>>>From scout building to back of field: 304ft (92meters)
> >>>>>A straight line of Cat6e wire from back door, across the
> >>>>>driveway on
> >>>>>the
> >>>>>choir room side, to the trees, then along the side of the property,
> >>>>>back
> >>>>>to the cross near the fire-pit: 500 ft ( 152 meters)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>So from Back wall of building to where the Beer is sold is 480ft.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>OPTIONS:
> >>>>>A) Run a 500 foot Cat6e cable from the switch in the
> >>>>>sanctuary, out the
> >>>>>choir room fire escape, out the Choir fire escape door, across the
> >>>>>driveway in a 1/2??? PVC pipe,?? with pieces of 2x4 slant
> >>>>>cut on either
> >>>>>side to make a ramp to drive over, along the tree line, to
> >>>>>the cross
> >>>>>near the fire pit, and place an access point there.?? We
> >>>>>would already
> >>>>>have power there for audio speaker.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>B) Implement a Mesh network, using existing Virtual Studio
> >>>>>Raspberry PI
> >>>>>processors, from the back window, to the scout building,
> >>>>>to a unit at
> >>>>>the tent.???? While possible, this leaves one more
> >>>>>essential component of
> >>>>>Oktoberfest that Only Neal Understands.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>C) Place a purpose built long range Access point outside,
> >>>>>perhaps on
> >>>>>the
> >>>>>classroom fire-escape wall, where it will be in the shade of the
> >>>>>steps.??
> >>>>>?? This could be a permanent installation.???? Some of these can be
> >>>>>powered
> >>>>>by the CAT6 cable connection.?? (POE)???? Neal is not an expert.?? I am
> >>>>>reading that some units claim coverage of up to 600 ft.?? This would
> >>>>>include coverage of the rear parking lot.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Possible products: This is by no means exhaustive; consider
> >>>>>https://www.mbreviews.com/best-outdoor-wifi-range-extender/
> >>>>>for more
> >>>>>details/ideas.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>A) Ubiquiti Networks UAP-AC-LR-US 802.11ac Long Range Access Point??
> >>>>>$109
> >>>>>https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1189144-REG/ubiquiti_networks_uap_ac_lr_us_802_11ac_long_range.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>?? There are indoor, and indoor/outdoor flavors of
> >>>>>these.?? Some powered
> >>>>>by POE.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>B) TP-LINK CPE210 N300 Outdoor Access Point $39
> >>>>>https://www.microcenter.com/product/482831/tp-link-cpe210-n300-outdoor-access-point
> >>>>>
> >>>>>This unit appears to be designed to mount on an outside
> >>>>>wall, and has
> >>>>>directional antenna which focus the signal in one direction only.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>C) CPE510 5GHz 300Mbps 13dBi Outdoor $49
> >>>>>CPEhttps://www.tp-link.com/us/business-networking/outdoor-radio/cpe510/??
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Unclear what you get for the additional $10.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Now that I'm writing this, I'm wondering if the TP-Link
> >>>>>units really
> >>>>>only work talking to each other, and not to a tablet out
> >>>>>in the grass.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Neal
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