[ale] way OT - used car buying tips - yea or nea

[Boris Borisov]

On Friday, November 9, 2012, Ron Frazier (ALE) <
atllinuxenthinfo at techstarship.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> As promised, here are some used car buying tips I've compiled based on
some of my own experiences looking for a used car.  I haven't bought one
yet, and am still looking.  If I don't find the right thing at the right
price, I may not buy.  In that case, I might fix my old car.
>
> Big disclaimers.  All this falls into the category of take it for what
it's worth and your mileage  may vary.  I am not a car expert, and I'm not
a negotiation expert.  None of this is intended to be comprehensive or
exhaustive.  Also, some parts are in random order.  Also, everyone will
have different experiences and opinions.  Season to your taste.
>
> OK, so what's the best way to buy a used car?
>
> If you have an $ 8000 + budget, I think the best way to buy is CarMax.
 Don't worry.  I'm not copping out on giving you data about a non dealer
route.  I'll get to that later.  If I had the budget, that would probably
be the first and last place I'd go just to have a hassle free experience.
 We've bought a car from them and had a very good experience.  We bought a
Hyundai sedan.  It turns out that the owner had upsized the tires.  While
they theoretically should have worked, every time we went over a hump, the
tires would scrub in the fender wells.  We reported the problem to CarMax
and they arranged with the local Hyundai dealer to replace the tires (and
wheels) for us.
>
> CarMax has no haggle pricing, which I personally like.  You look at the
sticker, add some taxes and fees, and you have your number.  Very simple.
>
> Here's some data from CarMax's website.
>
>
http://www.carmax.com/enus/page/why-carmax-reasons.html?intcmp=CQC2012REASONStrL01WhyCarMax
>
> * Low, no-haggle prices
> * Flexible financing options
> * Thousands of cars priced under $12,000
> * Our Sales Consultants are paid the same Fixed commissions
> * 125+ point inspection
> * No cars with flood or frame damage
> * Every used car is renewed
> * Free Full Vehicle History Report
> * Clean Title Guarantee
> * 5-Day Money-Back Guarantee
> * Limited 30-Day Warranty
> * MaxCare ® extended service plans
> * Nearly every make and model
> * We'll buy your car even if you don't buy ours
> * Experience that’s measured in millions - That’s millions, as in over
2,000,000 cars sold - That’s why we’re America’s #1 used car retailer.
>
> OK, this is Ron talking again.  That's a pretty impressive list.  One
thing that they don't mention above is that they will ship a car in from
another location, up to 300 miles I think, for free.  So, if you want to
see and test drive a car from TN, you can have it brought to your location.
 For cars further away, you pay $ 300 to ship it up to a certain distance
if I recall.
>
> If you have an $ 8000 + budget, another good way is to go to a reputable
dealer and buy a certified pre owned (insert brand here).  A reputable
dealer REALLY WILL subject the car to an extensive 100 point plus
professional inspection.  They will fix the major things and disclose any
remaining minor things to you.  Many of their trade in's don't meet their
criteria and will not even be put on their lot.  Those get sent to auction.
 You may still want to have the car inspected.  More on that later.  I have
bought one car this way, and it was a good car.
>
> Notice that I said reputable dealer.  How do you find them?  I don't have
a magic answer.  Usually, you want to look at larger brand name dealers
with the resources and service departments to get all this done.  When you
talk to them, you have to judge how truthful the sales rep is being with
you about any problems with the car, what's been done to it, and so on.
 Look for them to give you tips that relate to your personal situation that
may not be in their short term financial interest.  If they try to pressure
you, or artificially drag negotiations out, or drop lots of hidden surprise
fees on you - RUN away.
>
> I like to find people I trust and stick with them.  So, I can drop a
couple of names of dealers we've actually dealt with and had good results.
 In my case, the car I'm hunting is a rare combination of model and price,
so I pretty much have to go where the cars are and just be very careful.
 My wife previously purchased a Honda from Milton Martin Honda and had a
good experience.  Also, we previously purchased a Toyota from Toyota of
Roswell and had a good experience.
>
> OK, so that's the big dealer route, and it definitely has advantages,
namely, less hassle and worry about the state of your new used vehicle.
 But, there is a cost for all that extra attention they pay to the car, and
all the cheaper cars they reject.
>
> Let's talk about buying a cheaper car, either from a smaller dealer or an
individual.  I'm going to relate my story, along with tips and tricks I've
learned.
>
> We wanted something that we could haul things around in more so than we
can with a sedan.  We've had a minivan before and that's not my wife's
favorite platform.  I don't like trucks since the cargo is out in the
weather.  So, we centered on the SUV concept.  We've had a full sized SUV
(Toyota Land Cruiser) in the past.  It was a beautiful beast of a car.
 Somewhat luxurious and very powerful and flexible.  But, at $ 4 / gallon
for gas and 13 MPG, it was PAINFUL every time I went to the pump.  That was
involved in an accident, and is no longer with us.  The car actually costs
more to fix because it was made so good.  All the body panels were welded
on.
>
> Anyway, I started looking at midsized SUV's, which have a good compromise
between fuel economy and cargo space.  In my opinion, the US auto makers
got sloppy and dropped their quality standards in the 90's and early 00's.
 So, I asked my mechanic about 1-2 years ago which brands he recommends as
the best quality.  He said, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, newer Hyundai, newer
Kia, newer Ford.  I'm interpreting "newer" to mean ~ 2005+, since, at the
time, he said in the last 5 years.  Ford was the only domestic company he
mentioned.  Many of these cars are actually made in the USA, but to the
standards of their home companies.
>
> Let's talk about research.  How do you find the car you want?  You can
use these methods even if you are buying certified pre owned or through
CarMax.
>
> I'll use my case as an example.  You have to trust these websites and
allow javascript for these things to work.
>
> The first criteria that I wanted my car to meet was to be an SUV that
gets a combined fuel economy rating of 18 MPG.  You have to be practical.
 A non hybrid SUV is not going to get 35 MPG.  I also want an automatic
transmission.
>
> Go here - http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.shtml
>
> Scroll down the the search by class section.
>
> I selected 2002, SUV, and left the fuel economy blank, since it won't let
me put in 18  MPG.  2002 is arbitrary, but is the same age as my trade in.
 I would prefer 2005 or later, but the newer the car, the more expensive.
>
> The list you see is not the one you want.  Click modify search to get to
the advanced search screen.  Here you have drop down boxes which allow you
to select advanced parameters.
>
> I drop down the fuel type box and select regular gasoline.  This excludes
other things such as diesel or electric.
> I drop down the transmission box and select automatic.
> I drop down the fuel MPG box and select option 2 and select combined MPG
and type in a range of 18 to 50.
> I drop down the number of listings to show in results and select 300
instead of 25.
>
> Then I click search.
>
> This produces a list of 2002 SUV's which burn regular gasoline and have
an automatic transmission and get 18 or more MPG.  You could add more
years, but every vehicle will be duplicated for every year it exists.  So,
you might see 5 or 10 Honda CR-V's etc, and each engine / transmission type
is separate.
>
> This becomes my master list to work from.  I print it and look through
it.  I cross anything with a 2 L engine.  Why?  Because any SUV with a 2 L
engine (non turbo) is either extremely small or extremely under powered or
both.  The sweet spot for the midsized SUV's seems to be 2.7 L to 3.3 L,
which still give good power for a larger vehicle.
>
> Based on my brand criteria, the possible models are Toyota RAV-4, Honda
CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe, Mazda Tribute, Suzuki Grand Vitara, Toyota
Highlander, and Ford Escape.  My wife and I have tested Toyota RAV-4's and
Honda CR-V's and they're too small inside for our taste, so they get
crossed off.  By the way, Ford owns controlling interest in Mazda, and the
Tribute and Escape share engineering genealogy.
>
> So, now I have to research individual vehicles.  You have to research
each year separately, since safety, recalls, styling, reliability, and
features change.  Just because an '02 model is OK, it doesn't mean an '03
model is.   For example, I drove an '03 Tribute.  I had good leg room.  I
sat in an '06 Tribute that a friend owns.  Mazda had added a center console
that my legs were hitting.  In another case, Hyundai has a very odd styling
on the hood and dash of older Santa Fe's.  This was changed in '07.
 Hyundai made side air bags and Anti Lock Brakes standard in '05.  So, you
just cannot say you like all Santa Fe's without doing research if you care
about the details.
>
> Now, I want to research individual vehicles.  Let's take the Hyundai
Santa Fe for example.  I don't want to research every vehicle from 2002 -
2012.  I know I cannot afford the newer ones.  So, I limit my efforts to
2002 - 2008 with a preference for 2005 and later.  My budget is $ 6000 max,
including my trade, so options are limited.
>
> Go to http://edmunds.com/ .
>
> Click the used cars tab.  This is a little confusing.  The first thing
you see is a place to search for cars for sale.  This is not what you want.
 Scroll down and look to the right where it says used car finder.  Pick
your year.  This sends you to an advanced page where you can specify any
options you like and it dynamically updates a search list.
>
> I check off 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.
> I check Hyundai as the brand.
> I check SUV and Wagon as the types.  (Fueleconomy.gov didn't have wagon.)
> I look at the list below and find 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe and click it.
>
> Now I get specific information about this car.  I might also see
something like the Hyundai Tuscon, a full size SUV.  I'm not interested in
this because of it's poorer fuel economy.  For the Santa Fe, I click the
photos section and look though all they photos.  I back up to the summary
page, scroll down, and read the professional review.  This may be short or
long.  I click the safety tab and check the crash test ratings then come
back to the summary.  You may want to check more safety data and recall
data which can be done elsewhere.  Then, I click the reliability tab.
>
> You can select which engine and transmission to look at, although I don't
know if the reliability ratings are that granular.  Avoid any car with red
X ratings and ones that don't have a 5 of 5 reliability rating.  If minor
things are mentioned, use your own discretion.  I personally don't want to
see anything reported on this chart that would cost me more than $ 200 to
fix.
>
> So, hopefully, you've found a year make model engine transmission combo
that you like, that is safe, that gets reasonable MPG, and that is
reliable.  Again, don't assume that the '04 is OK just because the '05 is.
 Check each one and make a list of which cars you will accept.  The
edmunds.com list will show things that weren't on your
fueleconomy.govlist.  For example, cars with 3.5 or 4 L engines, with
diesels, or manual
transmissions.  Keep your original criteria in mind and filter accordingly.
>
> You may want to do further research on safety and recalls.  There are
many sites for this.  Here are a couple that I ran across.  These are
specific to my searches, but you can back up higher in these sites to
search for the cars you want.
>
>
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/safety.aspx?year=2007&make=Hyundai&model=Sonata&trimid=103143#VIP_TAB
>
> http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2003/mazda/tribute/safety/
>
> http://www.motortrend.com/used_cars/recalls/
>
> http://www.automobilemag.com/am/2003/mazda/tribute/safety.html
>
> http://www.automobilemag.com/am/2003/mazda/tribute/recalls.html
>
>
http://www.internetautoguide.com/7-13-2003-50-1292-1075/2003-mazda-tribute-lx-sport-utility-crash-tests.html
>
> http://www.cars.com/mazda/tribute/2003/expert-reviews/?revid=46927
>
> These sites can tell you which recalls MAY apply to a given type of car,
but a dealer can tell you which ones apply to a specific VIN number.
>
> IF YOU'RE GOING TO BUY A CAR THAT'S NOT CERTIFIED BY A BIG DEALER OR BY
CARMAX, ETC., YOU MUST GET IT INSPECTED.
>
> Let me repeat that.  You M U S T get it inspected.  The exceptions would
be if you are a mechanic or you like ugly surprises.  All the little
dealers sell cars AS IS.  Once you do the deal, it's yours, whatever the
consequences.
>
> Let me tell you a couple of personal stories.
>
> A few years ago, I wanted to buy an old Mercedes diesel to convert to run
on veggie oil.  I did buy a car, and I haven't gotten around to converting
it.  But, here's how it happened.
>
> I found a classified ad for a car that looked good.  I met the owner in a
convenient parking lot  in my area.  I drove the car and was very
impressed.  It drove well.  I failed to test ALL of the gadgets, but
everything major was working.  I said I wanted to get it inspected.  He
said it couldn't take it off the market for that long.  He said,
truthfully, that other people were waiting to buy it.  He said I should buy
it now if I wanted it or it would be gone.  I believe that was actually the
case.  So, I bought it.  Then I got it inspected.  Well, it had some non
obvious problems.  It had some oil leaks and needed new oil cooler hoses.
 It needed some bushings.  It needed some misc other parts.  It had a noisy
rear end that was grinding.  So, right away, I had to pony up another $ 800
or so.  And, it had another thing that the mechanic missed.  One motor
mount was bad.  Because of the geometry of the engine, this was allowing
the engine to sink down a couple of inches on one side.  Well, unknown to
me, that was allowing one of the drive belts to also sink down.  Finally
the belt contacted one of my shiny new oil cooler hoses and ground through
it.  Within minutes, I had oil spraying all under the hood, oil pressure
was gone, and I had to shut off the car.  This was in my drive way,
fortunately.  I had the car towed back to the mechanic and told him his oil
cooler hoses had failed.  He said no, that the belt had cut the hoses.  He
replaced the hoses for free, but I still had to pay for a motor mount.
 More $$$ down a hole.  Now, if I had gotten the car inspected, much of
this might have been discovered.  If I'd walked away when I couldn't get it
inspected, I might have found a better deal.  I don't regret owning that
car, but the path to get it definitely had some pain.
>
> A few days ago, my wife and I drove a Hyundai Santa Fe.  We didn't make a
deal on it right then because of some condition issues, although we liked
the car.  It was a 2001.  When I got back to my computer, I found that
model has timing belt problems where the belt breaks and screws up the
engine.  If you have a choice, get a timing chain.  And, research it FIRST.
>
> Here's another one.
>
> Yesterday, I drove a Mazda Tribute at a small dealer in Roswell.  The car
drove well, looked good, and my wife and I were ready to buy it.  I said I
wanted to get it inspected.  The dealer said, no problem, but trust me, the
car is great, don't waste your money.  Now, I don't really think he was
trying to defraud me, but all was not great.  Read on.  I took the car to
the Mazda dealer nearby.  I paid $ 130 for it to be inspected, the same way
they do their used cars.
>
> So, here's a list of what that car needed:
>
> brake fluid has moisture                   - $ 0099
> water pump belt worn                       -  $ 0100
> 6 new spark plugs                               - $ 0203
> battery was dead and done              - $ 0126
> valve cover gasket oil leak               - $ 0614
> front timing cover gasket oil leak  - $ 1006
> oil pan gasket oil leak                        - $ 0343
> coolant contaminated and foamy
>    flush and fill elsewhere                   - $ 0100
> center console plastic lid crushed - $ 0383
> -------------------------------------------
> sub total                                                  - $ 2974
>
> By the way, on a V6 engine mounted sideways, the rear 3 plugs are totally
buried under the air intake manifold, which has to be totally taken apart
to replace them.
>
> And, that ain't all:
>
> I knew the tires were low on tread and 5 years old because I looked at
the tread and checked the DOT year code.  But, I thought it would be a
while before I'd have to deal with that.  Not so.  There was a nail and a
screw in one tire.  It couldn't be patched and was unsafe.
>
> There are new safety standards for tires that are being recommended.
 They should be less than 5 years old as indicated by the DOT code.  Tread
should be 4/32" or more.  You can put a qua
>
>
>
> "Ron Frazier (ALE)" <atllinuxenthinfo at techstarship.com> wrote:
>
>>Hi guys,
>>
>>It just so happens I've been shopping for a used car.  I haven't yet
>>bought one.  However, I've already accumulated some hard knocks tips
>>and tricks that I'm willing to share.  However, since it's so far off
>>topic, I didn't know whether to post them here or not.  Thoughts?
>>
>>Ron
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9
Mail.
> Please excuse my potential brevity.
>
> (To whom it may concern.  My email address has changed.  Replying to
former
> messages prior to 03/31/12 with my personal address will go to the wrong
> address.  Please send all personal correspondence to the new address.)
>
> (PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
> call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy
> mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very
quickly.)
>
> Ron Frazier
> 770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
> linuxdude AT <
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