[ale] way OT - used car buying tips - yea or nea

[Ron Frazier (ALE)]

Hi all,

As promised, here are some used car buying tips I've compiled based on some of my own experiences looking for a used car.  I haven't bought one yet, and am still looking.  If I don't find the right thing at the right price, I may not buy.  In that case, I might fix my old car.

Big disclaimers.  All this falls into the category of take it for what it's worth and your mileage  may vary.  I am not a car expert, and I'm not a negotiation expert.  None of this is intended to be comprehensive or exhaustive.  Also, some parts are in random order.  Also, everyone will have different experiences and opinions.  Season to your taste.

OK, so what's the best way to buy a used car?

If you have an $ 8000 + budget, I think the best way to buy is CarMax.  Don't worry.  I'm not copping out on giving you data about a non dealer route.  I'll get to that later.  If I had the budget, that would probably be the first and last place I'd go just to have a hassle free experience.  We've bought a car from them and had a very good experience.  We bought a Hyundai sedan.  It turns out that the owner had upsized the tires.  While they theoretically should have worked, every time we went over a hump, the tires would scrub in the fender wells.  We reported the problem to CarMax and they arranged with the local Hyundai dealer to replace the tires (and wheels) for us.

CarMax has no haggle pricing, which I personally like.  You look at the sticker, add some taxes and fees, and you have your number.  Very simple.

Here's some data from CarMax's website.

http://www.carmax.com/enus/page/why-carmax-reasons.html?intcmp=CQC2012REASONStrL01WhyCarMax

* Low, no-haggle prices
* Flexible financing options
* Thousands of cars priced under $12,000
* Our Sales Consultants are paid the same Fixed commissions
* 125+ point inspection
* No cars with flood or frame damage
* Every used car is renewed
* Free Full Vehicle History Report
* Clean Title Guarantee
* 5-Day Money-Back Guarantee
* Limited 30-Day Warranty
* MaxCare ® extended service plans
* Nearly every make and model
* We'll buy your car even if you don't buy ours
* Experience that’s measured in millions - That’s millions, as in over 2,000,000 cars sold - That’s why we’re America’s #1 used car retailer.

OK, this is Ron talking again.  That's a pretty impressive list.  One thing that they don't mention above is that they will ship a car in from another location, up to 300 miles I think, for free.  So, if you want to see and test drive a car from TN, you can have it brought to your location.  For cars further away, you pay $ 300 to ship it up to a certain distance if I recall.

If you have an $ 8000 + budget, another good way is to go to a reputable dealer and buy a certified pre owned (insert brand here).  A reputable dealer REALLY WILL subject the car to an extensive 100 point plus professional inspection.  They will fix the major things and disclose any remaining minor things to you.  Many of their trade in's don't meet their criteria and will not even be put on their lot.  Those get sent to auction.  You may still want to have the car inspected.  More on that later.  I have bought one car this way, and it was a good car.

Notice that I said reputable dealer.  How do you find them?  I don't have a magic answer.  Usually, you want to look at larger brand name dealers with the resources and service departments to get all this done.  When you talk to them, you have to judge how truthful the sales rep is being with you about any problems with the car, what's been done to it, and so on.  Look for them to give you tips that relate to your personal situation that may not be in their short term financial interest.  If they try to pressure you, or artificially drag negotiations out, or drop lots of hidden surprise fees on you - RUN away.

I like to find people I trust and stick with them.  So, I can drop a couple of names of dealers we've actually dealt with and had good results.  In my case, the car I'm hunting is a rare combination of model and price, so I pretty much have to go where the cars are and just be very careful.  My wife previously purchased a Honda from Milton Martin Honda and had a good experience.  Also, we previously purchased a Toyota from Toyota of Roswell and had a good experience.

OK, so that's the big dealer route, and it definitely has advantages, namely, less hassle and worry about the state of your new used vehicle.  But, there is a cost for all that extra attention they pay to the car, and all the cheaper cars they reject.

Let's talk about buying a cheaper car, either from a smaller dealer or an individual.  I'm going to relate my story, along with tips and tricks I've learned.

We wanted something that we could haul things around in more so than we can with a sedan.  We've had a minivan before and that's not my wife's favorite platform.  I don't like trucks since the cargo is out in the weather.  So, we centered on the SUV concept.  We've had a full sized SUV (Toyota Land Cruiser) in the past.  It was a beautiful beast of a car.  Somewhat luxurious and very powerful and flexible.  But, at $ 4 / gallon for gas and 13 MPG, it was PAINFUL every time I went to the pump.  That was involved in an accident, and is no longer with us.  The car actually costs more to fix because it was made so good.  All the body panels were welded on.

Anyway, I started looking at midsized SUV's, which have a good compromise between fuel economy and cargo space.  In my opinion, the US auto makers got sloppy and dropped their quality standards in the 90's and early 00's.  So, I asked my mechanic about 1-2 years ago which brands he recommends as the best quality.  He said, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, newer Hyundai, newer Kia, newer Ford.  I'm interpreting "newer" to mean ~ 2005+, since, at the time, he said in the last 5 years.  Ford was the only domestic company he mentioned.  Many of these cars are actually made in the USA, but to the standards of their home companies.

Let's talk about research.  How do you find the car you want?  You can use these methods even if you are buying certified pre owned or through CarMax.

I'll use my case as an example.  You have to trust these websites and allow javascript for these things to work.

The first criteria that I wanted my car to meet was to be an SUV that gets a combined fuel economy rating of 18 MPG.  You have to be practical.  A non hybrid SUV is not going to get 35 MPG.  I also want an automatic transmission.

Go here - http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.shtml

Scroll down the the search by class section.

I selected 2002, SUV, and left the fuel economy blank, since it won't let me put in 18  MPG.  2002 is arbitrary, but is the same age as my trade in.  I would prefer 2005 or later, but the newer the car, the more expensive.

The list you see is not the one you want.  Click modify search to get to the advanced search screen.  Here you have drop down boxes which allow you to select advanced parameters.

I drop down the fuel type box and select regular gasoline.  This excludes other things such as diesel or electric.
I drop down the transmission box and select automatic.
I drop down the fuel MPG box and select option 2 and select combined MPG and type in a range of 18 to 50.
I drop down the number of listings to show in results and select 300 instead of 25.

Then I click search.

This produces a list of 2002 SUV's which burn regular gasoline and have an automatic transmission and get 18 or more MPG.  You could add more years, but every vehicle will be duplicated for every year it exists.  So, you might see 5 or 10 Honda CR-V's etc, and each engine / transmission type is separate.

This becomes my master list to work from.  I print it and look through it.  I cross anything with a 2 L engine.  Why?  Because any SUV with a 2 L engine (non turbo) is either extremely small or extremely under powered or both.  The sweet spot for the midsized SUV's seems to be 2.7 L to 3.3 L, which still give good power for a larger vehicle.

Based on my brand criteria, the possible models are Toyota RAV-4, Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe, Mazda Tribute, Suzuki Grand Vitara, Toyota Highlander, and Ford Escape.  My wife and I have tested Toyota RAV-4's and Honda CR-V's and they're too small inside for our taste, so they get crossed off.  By the way, Ford owns controlling interest in Mazda, and the Tribute and Escape share engineering genealogy.

So, now I have to research individual vehicles.  You have to research each year separately, since safety, recalls, styling, reliability, and features change.  Just because an '02 model is OK, it doesn't mean an '03 model is.   For example, I drove an '03 Tribute.  I had good leg room.  I sat in an '06 Tribute that a friend owns.  Mazda had added a center console that my legs were hitting.  In another case, Hyundai has a very odd styling on the hood and dash of older Santa Fe's.  This was changed in '07.  Hyundai made side air bags and Anti Lock Brakes standard in '05.  So, you just cannot say you like all Santa Fe's without doing research if you care about the details.

Now, I want to research individual vehicles.  Let's take the Hyundai Santa Fe for example.  I don't want to research every vehicle from 2002 - 2012.  I know I cannot afford the newer ones.  So, I limit my efforts to 2002 - 2008 with a preference for 2005 and later.  My budget is $ 6000 max, including my trade, so options are limited.

Go to http://edmunds.com/ .

Click the used cars tab.  This is a little confusing.  The first thing you see is a place to search for cars for sale.  This is not what you want.  Scroll down and look to the right where it says used car finder.  Pick your year.  This sends you to an advanced page where you can specify any options you like and it dynamically updates a search list.

I check off 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.
I check Hyundai as the brand.
I check SUV and Wagon as the types.  (Fueleconomy.gov didn't have wagon.)
I look at the list below and find 2005 Hyundai Santa Fe and click it.

Now I get specific information about this car.  I might also see something like the Hyundai Tuscon, a full size SUV.  I'm not interested in this because of it's poorer fuel economy.  For the Santa Fe, I click the photos section and look though all they photos.  I back up to the summary page, scroll down, and read the professional review.  This may be short or long.  I click the safety tab and check the crash test ratings then come back to the summary.  You may want to check more safety data and recall data which can be done elsewhere.  Then, I click the reliability tab.

You can select which engine and transmission to look at, although I don't know if the reliability ratings are that granular.  Avoid any car with red X ratings and ones that don't have a 5 of 5 reliability rating.  If minor things are mentioned, use your own discretion.  I personally don't want to see anything reported on this chart that would cost me more than $ 200 to fix.

So, hopefully, you've found a year make model engine transmission combo that you like, that is safe, that gets reasonable MPG, and that is reliable.  Again, don't assume that the '04 is OK just because the '05 is.  Check each one and make a list of which cars you will accept.  The edmunds.com list will show things that weren't on your fueleconomy.gov list.  For example, cars with 3.5 or 4 L engines, with diesels, or manual transmissions.  Keep your original criteria in mind and filter accordingly.

You may want to do further research on safety and recalls.  There are many sites for this.  Here are a couple that I ran across.  These are specific to my searches, but you can back up higher in these sites to search for the cars you want.

http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/safety.aspx?year=2007&make=Hyundai&model=Sonata&trimid=103143#VIP_TAB

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2003/mazda/tribute/safety/

http://www.motortrend.com/used_cars/recalls/

http://www.automobilemag.com/am/2003/mazda/tribute/safety.html

http://www.automobilemag.com/am/2003/mazda/tribute/recalls.html

http://www.internetautoguide.com/7-13-2003-50-1292-1075/2003-mazda-tribute-lx-sport-utility-crash-tests.html

http://www.cars.com/mazda/tribute/2003/expert-reviews/?revid=46927

These sites can tell you which recalls MAY apply to a given type of car, but a dealer can tell you which ones apply to a specific VIN number.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO BUY A CAR THAT'S NOT CERTIFIED BY A BIG DEALER OR BY CARMAX, ETC., YOU MUST GET IT INSPECTED.

Let me repeat that.  You M U S T get it inspected.  The exceptions would be if you are a mechanic or you like ugly surprises.  All the little dealers sell cars AS IS.  Once you do the deal, it's yours, whatever the consequences.

Let me tell you a couple of personal stories.

A few years ago, I wanted to buy an old Mercedes diesel to convert to run on veggie oil.  I did buy a car, and I haven't gotten around to converting it.  But, here's how it happened.

I found a classified ad for a car that looked good.  I met the owner in a convenient parking lot  in my area.  I drove the car and was very impressed.  It drove well.  I failed to test ALL of the gadgets, but everything major was working.  I said I wanted to get it inspected.  He said it couldn't take it off the market for that long.  He said, truthfully, that other people were waiting to buy it.  He said I should buy it now if I wanted it or it would be gone.  I believe that was actually the case.  So, I bought it.  Then I got it inspected.  Well, it had some non obvious problems.  It had some oil leaks and needed new oil cooler hoses.  It needed some bushings.  It needed some misc other parts.  It had a noisy rear end that was grinding.  So, right away, I had to pony up another $ 800 or so.  And, it had another thing that the mechanic missed.  One motor mount was bad.  Because of the geometry of the engine, this was allowing the engine to sink down a couple of inches on one side.  Well, unknown to me, that was allowing one of the drive belts to also sink down.  Finally the belt contacted one of my shiny new oil cooler hoses and ground through it.  Within minutes, I had oil spraying all under the hood, oil pressure was gone, and I had to shut off the car.  This was in my drive way, fortunately.  I had the car towed back to the mechanic and told him his oil cooler hoses had failed.  He said no, that the belt had cut the hoses.  He replaced the hoses for free, but I still had to pay for a motor mount.  More $$$ down a hole.  Now, if I had gotten the car inspected, much of this might have been discovered.  If I'd walked away when I couldn't get it inspected, I might have found a better deal.  I don't regret owning that car, but the path to get it definitely had some pain.

A few days ago, my wife and I drove a Hyundai Santa Fe.  We didn't make a deal on it right then because of some condition issues, although we liked the car.  It was a 2001.  When I got back to my computer, I found that model has timing belt problems where the belt breaks and screws up the engine.  If you have a choice, get a timing chain.  And, research it FIRST.

Here's another one.

Yesterday, I drove a Mazda Tribute at a small dealer in Roswell.  The car drove well, looked good, and my wife and I were ready to buy it.  I said I wanted to get it inspected.  The dealer said, no problem, but trust me, the car is great, don't waste your money.  Now, I don't really think he was trying to defraud me, but all was not great.  Read on.  I took the car to the Mazda dealer nearby.  I paid $ 130 for it to be inspected, the same way they do their used cars.

So, here's a list of what that car needed:

brake fluid has moisture                   - $ 0099
water pump belt worn                       -  $ 0100
6 new spark plugs                               - $ 0203
battery was dead and done              - $ 0126
valve cover gasket oil leak               - $ 0614
front timing cover gasket oil leak  - $ 1006
oil pan gasket oil leak                        - $ 0343
coolant contaminated and foamy
   flush and fill elsewhere                   - $ 0100
center console plastic lid crushed - $ 0383
-------------------------------------------
sub total                                                  - $ 2974

By the way, on a V6 engine mounted sideways, the rear 3 plugs are totally buried under the air intake manifold, which has to be totally taken apart to replace them.

And, that ain't all:

I knew the tires were low on tread and 5 years old because I looked at the tread and checked the DOT year code.  But, I thought it would be a while before I'd have to deal with that.  Not so.  There was a nail and a screw in one tire.  It couldn't be patched and was unsafe.

There are new safety standards for tires that are being recommended.  They should be less than 5 years old as indicated by the DOT code.  Tread should be 4/32" or more.  You can put a quarter into the tread with Washington's head down.  If you see the top of his head, replace the tires.  Don't use a penny, that's the old way and is less safe in rainy conditions.  You can get a cheap tread gauge at the auto parts store.

On a 4WD car, at least on this one, if you replace one tire, you have to replace all tires.  The reason is that each tire has to be the same diameter.  Otherwise, it puts excessive strain on the transmission and transfer case and can cause premature failure in the drive train.

So we add:

tires                                                              $ 0700
alignment                                                   $ 0080

But wait, there's more:

I need a second key for my wife.  It has a chip in it and has to be specially programmed.  I'll skip buying a 2nd remote.

key and programming                            $ 0159
manual is missing                                   $ 0025 ?? NOT available online
----------------------------------------------
Grand Total:                                               $ 3938

So, I pay $ 4000 in cash, $ 2000 in trade, and $ 3938 to fix things.  I'm up to $ 10,000.  For that, I can get a much nicer certified pre owned car from CarMax.

I DO REALIZE that all these things are not super critical right away, and that I could get my local mechanic to do work somewhat cheaper, although he's $ 95 / hour.  And I DO REALIZE that I could get some parts from a junk yard or aftermarket source.  But STILL!

Let's just say I didn't buy that Mazda.

I've got lots more, but that's it for now.  I've been typing for hours.  I'll present the rest later.  I'll talk about finding the car online, vetting it, taxes, emissions, usability features, and safety features.

Hope this is helpful.

Sincerely,

Ron




"Ron Frazier (ALE)" <atllinuxenthinfo at techstarship.com> wrote:

>Hi guys,
>
>It just so happens I've been shopping for a used car.  I haven't yet
>bought one.  However, I've already accumulated some hard knocks tips
>and tricks that I'm willing to share.  However, since it's so far off
>topic, I didn't know whether to post them here or not.  Thoughts?
>
>Ron
>
>
>


--

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Ron Frazier
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linuxdude AT techstarship.com