[ale] New Mailing List initiatives for ALE (last one, I promise)

[Dan Lambert]

Jerald Sheets wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2006, at 6:46 AM, Dan Lambert wrote:
> 
>>This discussion is on the verge of driving good members off because of
>>attitudes and inflammatory rhetoric.
>  
> 
> Which attitude?  The "If absolutely anything at all changes, I'm  
> taking my ball and going home" attitude?  Or the "Something has got  
> to be done, or I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude?  I'm  
> standing in a very rough location right now between opposing  
> opinions.  That I have chosen to voice the "other than norm" opinion  
> has met with resistance, sure.

You're standing in that position, Jerald, because you raised the issue. 
You stated that you knew that it would create traffic, and expected it 
to be a diverse opinion set.

In your previous reply that I quoted, you established and in essence 
ratified, the two camps that people fall into. The "pontificators" and 
the "whiners".

I don't really think I fall into either camp, so I'm disenfranchised. ;)

The attitudes of both sides have been established and displayed, and 
now, I guess, we are at the point of choosing teams. Thanks, but I'll 
sit that one out.

> What we have to realize, though, is there are clearly two very  
> distinct camps with very distinct needs.  Inaction (i.e. doing  
> nothing) will drive away a subset of users that have come here for  
> help and either a) receive some with great difficulty of finding it,  
> or b) get none with the added plus of being derided for asking simple  
> questions (not my words).  Are we serving our purpose by doing  
> nothing and letting this happen?  Action will drive away the other  
> subset of long-time users, wanting nothing to change and if anyone  
> wants to leave, then "good riddance".

We're not faced with doing nothing, and there is no reason why we should 
have to choose sides. There has been at least one very viable option 
offered here (provided that the software issues can be overcome, and 
I'll bet that they can) that will accomplish all of the needs of the 
group without any of the animosity.

Let's establish the ale-tech at ale.org, or whatever name is chosen, and 
ask for volunteers to manage the gateway between the forums via the 
alias, as proposed.
> 
> Here is a great example.  James (the thread you replied to) came on  
> here to give his two cents because he is waiting the outcome of this  
> debate.  If things don't change, he *has* to leave because of the  
> nature of this list's traffic.  It's just too much noise to signal to  
> be of any regular, continual help.  He's a new linux admin, and was  
> looking for a place to get help and guidance as he "comes on-line"  
> with his new job.  However, for him,   It's just too much, and it's  
> just too much off-topic. There are actually people attending meetings  
> that were not aware there even *was* a list, and come to meetings  
> because they would love to have a technical resource *THAT THIS LIST  
> MOST CERTAINLY IS*, mind you, and there are people who just leave the  
> list for the incredible volume of off-topic mail.

Do the above, and James doesn't have to do anything except change his 
preference (and join the ale-tech list if that's part of the new 
concept). He can continue receiving the ale list, or not. His choice.
> 
> And if we're driving off the Chris Farrises, and newbies are scared  
> to ask questions, and professionals won't touch us with a 10-foot  
> pole; Are we still serving our purpose?  If everyone thinks we are,  
> then so be it.  Are we truly a LUG doing it's job in the community,  
> or are we doing more harm than good to the name of Linux?

See above comment. We can have both. We'll only harm the community if 
the animosity grows.

> I got involved more heavily with this group because my company uses  
> Linux.  We wanted to give something back, have a place for the NW  
> group to begin meeting again, and provide a forum/meeting place in  
> the NW for this group to flourish.  I think we've done a good job in  
> that a) there's a place, b) there's been regular, quality speakers,  
> and c) there's been tasty snacks!  Our modus operandi has been one to  
> NOT interfere in the management of the organization, but to let it  
> "do it's thing" in the place we provided for it.  Through my  
> involvement as host, I have been getting a ton of commentary  
> regarding the list, and started an informal survey of my professional  
> and casual acquaintances based on that feedback, and it seemed there  
> should be something done, or at least considered to be done.  I  
> fretted even coming here with this conversation and have not done so  
> for over TWO MONTHS because I knew I'd get precisely the kind of  
> response I got from Jim, James, and others and the tone that would  
> accompany that response.  I've seen it in this list before, and the  
> folks that were involved in that conversation then are gone

I'm not going to call any names or point any fingers. I've been treated 
like crap on here a few times in the past, and those who were party know 
who they are. I'm still here. Some people on here need to realize that 
they put their pants on exactly the same way as everyone else does, and 
there is no one on here any better than any other.

If they think differently, and think that the  world won't go on without 
them, they need to remember all of the "indispensable" people who are in 
the ground, and we are still functioning. Attitudes are like a**holes, 
and most of them stink.

I am grateful to you, and to people like Chris, who have dedicated 
untold hours to trying to make things better fr everyone. It's 
admirable, and we are indebted to you. I wish more companies had the 
same enlightened attitudes as yours does.

> I'm not insinuating we are or we are not doing our job as a list or a  
> lug.  I am asking the questions so you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> Rest assured that ultimately what will be done is exactly what the  
> membership of this list wants.  If nothing, then so be it.  But when  
> people leave, and some amazing technical resources begin to leave as  
> well, we need to not just say "screw 'em", we need to understand that  
> it is us, our collective attitude, and our collective posture that  
> has run them off.

Agreed. See my above statement about attitudes.

> If the list is comfortable with that, let's not lie to ourselves...   
> Let's understand that we have driven them off then let's drop the topic.
> 
> ***
> 
> What I have now in my inbox is 64 messages.  Of these 65 messages,  
> there are several public list messages, and several off-list  
> messages.  Of the on-list messages, there is a good number of "I  
> think something needs to be done, but moderation isn't the way to  
> go".  There are a small number "no change" people, and there is an a  
> few suggestions to help provide the low noise list some are looking for.
> 
> Just thoughts, all of it.  No action is being or has been taken.  Yet  
> people are getting in a tizzy and dropping off-list EVEN THOUGH  
> NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE OR DECIDED UPON AS OF YET.  (dam*ed if you do  
> and dam*ed if you don't, eh?)
> 
> 
> I am, however, done stating my position.  If it all falls by the  
> wayside, so will the people in the wings waiting to see what  
> happens.  So will volunteers, on and on.  I do hope we come to a  
> solution that serves ALL of our little community, not just a few, and  
> encourages those who have left to come back and new members to come  
> and have a great resource to belong to.
> 
> --JMS

Dan