[ale] OT: H1B

Wed Dec 18 12:29:06 EST 2002

Can we make this an ammendment to the Constitution? it would probably
get rid of some realy idiotic laws.

Drag0n
dragon at atlantacon.org
"Carpe Aptenobites: Seize the Penguins!"

John Wells wrote:
> 
> Finally! That's one law I'm very thankful for ;-).
> 
> Charles Shapiro said:
> > Aha. Godwins Law has been invoked. You can all go home now.
> >
> > Godwin's Law (prov.  [Usenet]):
> >
> > As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a
> > comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a
> > tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is
> > over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost
> > whatever argument was in progress.  Godwin's Law thus guarantees
> > the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.
> >
> > -- CHS
> >
> > On Wed, 2002-12-18 at 03:54, George Johnson wrote:
> >> Negative on that human approach.  We humans just tend to make a mess
> >> of things.  National boundaries are a good thing.  What would have
> >> happened if Hitler were to come to power under some sort of a one
> >> world
> >> government?  Who would step up to take him out?
> >>
> >> I believe in BORDERS, LANGUAGE, CULTURE.  I have no problems with
> >> others that differ from mine.  In fact I am one of the curious types
> >> that is always interested in learning how others live, their religion,
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> gj
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ale-admin at ale.org [mailto:ale-admin at ale.org] On Behalf Of
> >> ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1)
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:13 PM
> >> To: 'ale at ale.org'
> >> Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> >>
> >> I don't necessarily agree with you on bad code. There is no proof
> >> required,
> >> other than the fact that, lots of software companies has established
> >> R&D offices in India, including Mocrosoft, employing thousands of
> >> software engineers. If we follow your argument, it is a pity that
> >> thousands of software companies have employed hundreds and thousands
> >> H1B workers in US
> >> alone. In my experience I have seen H1B people developing complex
> >> projects
> >> successfully. H1B workers specifically coming from China and India has
> >> to
> >> undergo numerous difficulties in order to come to US and work. In some
> >> cases, I can see approach and attitude problems. The tendency of
> >> displaying
> >> such chrascterstics could be slightly high because of their education,
> >> and
> >> bought up issues. In any case I would like to request you to
> >> appreciate the
> >> way we come all the way to work for US.
> >>
> >> Given that, as a H1-B worker, I would never support a native citizen
> >> loosing
> >> a job given other things same. I support strict rules, so that no
> >> native citizen is deprived of work with out a valid reason. If I were
> >> a native citizen, I would feel the same. I do not support H1B's paying
> >> millions of
> >> dollars in social security and medicare without getting a benefit out
> >> of it.
> >> Note that, I agree paying Federal and state Taxes.
> >>
> >> However, things are not the same. The goal for humanity is to trancend
> >> national boundaries and become truly international with human
> >> approach.
> >>
> >> cheers.
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:56 PM
> >> To: ale at ale.org
> >> Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
> >>
> >>
> >> ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1) wrote:
> >> > I agree with you partly and don;t agree if you apply to all the H1B
> >> workers.
> >> > Do you mean to say all the native citizens code is better than
> >> H1B's.
> >>
> >> In my personal experience, the hibs did not write decent code.  Now I
> >> can point you to US citizens who write lousy code, but overall, the
> >> quality of programming by US Citizens has been much better then that
> >> of  hibs.  That is based on personal experience, and is in no way a
> >> scientific measure.
> >>
> >> Never say always.  No, I'm saying that I've had the opportunity to
> >> work  with a good number of hibs primarily from China and India.  I
> >> can not  select one of them and tell you they write good code.
> >>
> >> I
> >> > think the point is that, in the boom time, we can see people having
> >> three
> >> > months experience doing coding for mission critical applications.
> >>
> >> That has nothing to do with how well you write your code.  Poor coding
> >>  constructs are an indication of inappropriate training/education, or
> >> lack of concern for the proper approach.
> >>
> >> This is
> >> > because of the boom and the oppurtunities created by the economy. If
> >> you
> >> can
> >> > see the accomplishment of some of the H1B's in the software, it is
> >> commendable. The guy who designed PIII is a H1B worker. There are so
> >> many
> >> > examples like this. It is a matter of training to get perfection.
> >>
> >> That is one example, of which you've provided no proof.
> >>
> >> > (By the way, I meant plastic. I am bad in typing not in spelling.).
> >>
> >> Your bad typing was very consistent in that posting, which is quite
> >> unusual.
> >>
> >> cheers.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 11:22 AM
> >> > To: ale at ale.org
> >> > Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A couple flaws in your assessment.  The first is that if all the
> >> work
> >> is
> >> > farmed out to h1b or overseas, then all these un-employed folks will
> >>  have no cash to purchase anything from these companies that are
> >> saving
> >>
> >> > all this money by using the cheaper labor.
> >> >
> >> > Secondly, there are US Citizens who are taking the jobs at the lower
> >>  rates in order to maintain employment.  It's unfortunate, because
> >> the  winners are the corporations, not the citizens, not the h1bs.
> >> >
> >> > Further, my personal experiences with h1b/contractors (that are of
> >> chinese, indian origin is), they are poorly trained in software
> >> development disciplines.  The code is terrible.  Inconsistent
> >> formatting, poor logical solutions, never documented.  Just plain
> >> sloppy.
> >> >
> >> > This is also exacerbated by the usual lack of command of the spoken
> >> language.  The code is hard to follow and you can't understand the
> >> guy
> >>
> >> > who wrote it.
> >> >
> >> > No offense, but it is apparent by your posting that English is not
> >> your
> >> > native tongue.  You must understand that this comes through in your
> >> work
> >> > as well.  For example, you use the word platic a number of times in
> >> your
> >> > posting.  I assume you meant plastic, but I'm not sure of that.  I'm
> >>  pretty sure this is not simply a typo as you did it at least 3
> >> times  this way.
> >> >
> >> > I think you're correct, in that there is a change coming, but all
> >> things
> >> > are cyclic.  It's just a matter of time until we see how much damage
> >>  this approach does to the overall economy.
> >> >
> >> > ANNAREDDY,REDDY (HP-Cupertino,ex1) wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Hi,
> >> >>I am a H1B holder working in US. US has no option left except to
> >> brings H1
> >> >>and also outsource the work. Let us see the reasons behind the
> >> argument.
> >> >>Europe is already having good software engineering background.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Until later: Geoffrey                esoteric at 3times25.net
> >>
> >> The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
> >> Think about it...
> >>
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