[ale] OT: H1B

Zyman, Andy zymana at hra.nyc.gov
Wed Dec 18 09:15:40 EST 2002 

Great. And let it stays in this way....

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mazukna, Thomas [mailto:Thomas.Mazukna at delta.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 3:45 PM
> To: 'ale at ale.org'
> Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> 
> 
> OMG
> 
> http://sedac.ciesin.org/plue/gpw/index.html?main.html&2
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 3:40 PM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
> 
> 
> Mazukna, Thomas wrote:
> > I do not appreciate you blamin everybody who was not born 
> on US soil.
> 
> Where is it that I lay such blame???
> 
> > Remember you ancestors where in the same boat some time ago 
> in which a
> bunch
> > of H1Bs/imigrants are now
> > Take a look at your history. Who built this country?
> 
> I am well aware of my country's history and where I come from.  The 
> bottom line is, there's no more room folks.  I'm doing my 
> part, I've got 
> one child.  Would I have liked to have more?  Sure, I'd love 
> to have had 
> a son to carry on my name.  But I will not continue to polute the 
> world's overgrown population.  Look at the population problems across 
> the world.  China and India are the two most overpopulated 
> countries in 
> the world.
> 
> > And US is protected from entry pretty darn well. Its really 
> hard to get in
> > here legally :)
> 
> Good.
> 
> > I agree with you on the language if you live here please 
> learn English.
> 
> Then I suggestion you revisit your own posting:
> 
> 'Remember you ancestors where in the same boat'
> 
> I suspect that was supposed to be:
> 
> remember your ancestors were in the same boat....
> 
> > 
> > I will stop responding on this subject now. There is no 
> point in trying to
> > tell you, you would have so see all this from inside for yourself.
> 
> You missed my whole point of my previous posting.  This 
> country, at one 
> time had the ability to take on immigrants with no problem.  
> I believe 
> this country has reached saturation.  Just like any other medium, it 
> will only hold so much.  Look at the burden on the health 
> care system, 
> the issues with elder care and such.  This country, and the 
> world needs 
> to understand, there is no room folks.
> 
> It has come to the point, that as others enter, others pay the price. 
> This is not right, good, or healthy.
> 
> > 
> > Tomas
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoffrey [mailto:esoteric at 3times25.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 2:40 PM
> > To: ale at ale.org
> > Subject: Re: [ale] OT: H1B
> > 
> > 
> > Mazukna, Thomas wrote:
> > 
> >>then you have to sell that BMW and go work for 40k/y as H1B 
> does or find
> >>another field.
> >>everybody is affected by economy downturn, and everybody 
> have to change.
> >>IT market was oversaturated by people who finish 3 month VB 
> course and
> > 
> > call
> > 
> >>themselves software developer. I do not see any threat to 
> people with good
> >>skills and broad skill set college degree and experience.
> > 
> > 
> > 15+ years in software development, BS in CS, and a damn 
> good programmer. 
> >   Talk to me in 6 months....
> > 
> > 
> >>US is like a gold mine for people from less fortunate 
> countries. This is a
> >>land of opportunities, do not be afraid to take them. I 
> would have stayed
> >>back home if I had a decent life there. 
> > 
> > 
> > I don't mind helping folks out, give them the shirt off my 
> back, but 
> > when there's no longer a shirt on your back....
> > 
> > 
> >>What I see is that immigrants/H1bs and even illegals put in 
> 150% effort,
> >>hard work look for opportunities and succeed in creating a 
> better life for
> >>themselves. 
> >>Some citizens on the other hand whine and try to blame everything on
> > 
> > someone
> > 
> >>else. Get your ass of the couch and do something. people 
> get spoiled so
> >>fast.
> >>I am not judging anybody, this is just a tendency I see here.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, you are.  You've pretty much prejudge a large segment 
> of the world 
> > population, and I for one, don't appreciated it.
> > 
> > I've seen immigrants who do give the 150% you speak of.  I've seen 
> > others sit back expecting the free ride.
> > 
> > Hell, they're about to give illegal immigrants in the state 
> of Georgia 
> > drivers license.  What's with that?  If they show up to get 
> a drivers 
> > license, they should find themselves on their way back 
> where they came
> from.
> > 
> > I've seen lazy us citizens as well, and I've seen people 
> like me, who 
> > put in 10+ hour days.  Yes, I've been rewarded for my 
> efforts, only one 
> > wrung above me in the technical universe.
> > 
> > Further, the non-english speaking folks of this country 
> continue to put 
> > a burden on the whole system.  Educational facilities don't 
> have the 
> > funds or people to deal with it.
> > 
> > I don't go to France, Spain or Germany and expect people to speak 
> > English.  The same should go for people who come to this country, 
> > particularily if they are going to stay and take away the 
> jobs of those 
> > who are already here.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >>Tomas
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: ahuitzot at mindspring.com [mailto:ahuitzot at mindspring.com]
> >>Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 1:12 PM
> >>To: ale at ale.org
> >>Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> >>
> >>
> >>And my point is, if we keep outsourcing there will not be 
> anyone left in
> >>america that would be able to afford these "cheap" software 
> (or what ever)
> >>products, because none of us will be left employed!  Unless 
> of course you
> > 
> > do
> > 
> >>not mind working for $7 an hr at arbys with no health 
> insurance (or a very
> >>minimum).
> >>
> >>In this way the "Global" economy makes no sense.  You cut 
> out all the
> >>"Expensive" workers here, and there is noone left with 
> enough money to buy
> >>your product, except maybe other companies.  Hmm. Ponder that for
> > 
> > awhile....
> > 
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>
> >>On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:17:57 -0500 "ANNAREDDY,REDDY 
> (HP-Cupertino,ex1)"
> >><reddyraja.annareddy at hp.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hi,
> >>>I am a H1B holder working in US. US has no
> >>>option left except to brings H1
> >>>and also outsource the work. Let us see the
> >>>reasons behind the argument.
> >>>Europe is already having good software
> >>>engineering background. 
> >>>
> >>>1. Competition among companies has increased a
> >>>lot. If you don't provide
> >>>software for cheap, some one will provide it
> >>>and take over your market. The
> >>>market is now a global economy. You can no
> >>>loner think locally. Suppose you
> >>>produce the software locally. In order for you
> >>>to compete globally, you have
> >>>to have a reasonable price. Given the emrging
> >>>developing nations like India,
> >>>China, they can write software at a much lower
> >>>cost compared to when the
> >>>software is written in US. In order for US
> >>>software companies to survice,
> >>>the only way out is to be part of the Global
> >>>economy and invest in India,
> >>>otherwise they are going to loose the
> >>>competition. If you see Intel, Sun,
> >>>IBM, HP, Ford, GM, GE, all these companies have
> >>>office in India. Thousands
> >>>of sofwtware professionals are working in these
> >>>companies to prodeuce
> >>>cheaper software.
> >>>2. If the software is cheap, the benefits you
> >>>are going to get are
> >>>  a.Lower insurance in most of the cases.
> >>>Because if they by expensive
> >>>software, they have to charge more insurance.
> >>>  b. Platics and Platic goods: Cheaper to
> >>>produce in China compared to any
> >>>other country in the world. If this is not so,
> >>>you have to buy the same
> >>>pieice for $10 if made in US as compared to $1
> >>>if made in China. This means
> >>>the inflation will go up. The cost of living
> >>>will go up. Our salary will not
> >>>be sufficient to survive.
> >>>  c. Even companies in India are shifting
> >>>their manufacturing bases to
> >>>china for cheaper platic goods. Economy is
> >>>truly Global.
> >>>3. Ireland a small country amounts major
> >>>software exports in all over the
> >>>world.
> >>>4. The companies not only have to survive, they
> >>>have to make profit.
> >>>Othewise invertors will not invest and the
> >>>stock goes down. US economy is
> >>>driven by stock value as compared to a real
> >>>value of the company. A company
> >>>is what an anlyst see as it is. It is not the
> >>>company the employess are made
> >>>of etc.
> >>>
> >>>5. I think going forwared, the days are going
> >>>to be tough. India and China
> >>>also have tough tasks ahead.
> >>>
> >>>6. I think, US is doing what it is supposed to
> >>>do(Smart). It is the mart
> >>>move in the Global economy to keep inflation
> >>>low and economy moving.
> >>>Otherwise there will me more layoffs etc.
> >>>
> >>>7. Why do we buy Japanese goods specifically
> >>>Cars etc. Becuase they last
> >>>long. The economy is truly global.
> >>>
> >>>8. I think the next century belongs to those,
> >>>who produce goods at a cheaper
> >>>cost. Does this country ever producess like
> >>>this. There is a point at which
> >>>this country has to yield to other developing
> >>>nations. As the econmomy
> >>>becomes global, more and more developing
> >>>countries will take part keeping
> >>>the cost of goods down and keeping the
> >>>inlfation down.
> >>>
> >>>9. We have to figure out new ways to survive
> >>>ourselves. Other wise we are
> >>>going to loose the cause.
> >>>
> >>>10. The reson why US is developed beacause of
> >>>the intense cold war. They are
> >>>forced to develop.
> >>> For any nation to survive, the people should
> >>>not rest. For people not to
> >>>rest,there has to be issues.
> >>>
> >>>--cheers.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Ray Knight
> >>>[mailto:audilover at atlantabroadband.com]
> >>>Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:58 PM
> >>>To: ale at ale.org
> >>>Subject: RE: [ale] OT: H1B
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Mon, 2002-12-16 at 15:58, Mazukna, Thomas
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Geoffrey wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I don't know if they do or not.  Bottom
> >>>
> >>>line for me is, I see too
> >>>many 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>VERY GOOD technical U.S. Citizens out of
> >>>
> >>>work, and therefore think
> >>>that 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>H1Bs should be stopped for until this
> >>>
> >>>problem is resolved.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Stopping H1b will not solve the problem.
> >>>
> >>>Period. But it is convenient
> >>>to
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>blame someone else instead.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Again, if there are citizens who are
> >>>
> >>>capable of performing the
> >>>function, 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>they should get the first shot.
> >>>>
> >>>>And it is in 99% of the cases. Have you
> >>>
> >>>looked at job offerings? 99%
> >>>say "No
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>H1b sponsorship" on the first line. 
> >>>>
> >>>>If you are in good health and can not find a
> >>>
> >>>job in US you are doing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>something wrong. Take a look around there are
> >>>
> >>>plenty of jobs, but it
> >>>will
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>not be 100k+ consulting gig, but you will not
> >>>
> >>>starve to death. H1b on
> >>>the
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>other hand once lost the job, must leave the
> >>>
> >>>country immediately,
> >>>since you
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>can not work for any other company.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>A risk the H1B visa holder should have been
> >>>aware of before taking the
> >>>job.  If you can't live by the rules of the
> >>>visa don't accept it. 
> >>>Besides most H1B visa holders are creating
> >>>"brain drain" problems in
> >>>their home country.  If they stayed home and
> >>>put there knowledge to work
> >>>they would not have the same standard of living
> >>>they enjoy in the U.S.,
> >>>but would be improving the future of their own
> >>>country.
> >>>
> >>>Ray
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Ale mailing list
> >>>Ale at ale.org
> >>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Ale mailing list
> >>>Ale at ale.org
> >>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net
> 
> The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
> Think about it...
> 
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