[ale] totally OT: hobbies

[Ron Frazier (ALE)]

Hi Sean,

I think you misunderstood me.  I actually agree with you.  I didn't actually say we HAD due process.  I guess I should say we SHOULD HAVE due process.  I do believe that there is a critical role for the spooks to play.  However, what they appear to be doing goes way overboard and probably is a gross violation of our constitutional rights.  There has to be a way to protect our rights FIRST and our safety, to a point, SECOND.  I'm not sure exactly what the correct balance is.  If my family was killed in a bombing, and it was found out that snooping on the innocent would have saved them, I might be biased and feel differently.  But, for the moment, I agree with you much more than I disagree.  Foundational principles of our culture are innocent until proven guilty and, paraphrasing what you said, not invading one's privacy without probable cause.  We cannot ignore that.

Sincerely,

Ron



Sean Kilpatrick <kilpatms at gmail.com> wrote:

>With all due respect, Ron and I have VERY different understandings of
>"due 
>process."
>
>The FISA Court is a Star Chamber.  Due Process doesn't exist there.
>
>The Fourth amendment reads this way:  
>The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers,
>and 
>effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be
>violated, 
>and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath
>or 
>affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and
>the 
>persons or things to be seized.
>
>
>That is, the security guard at a courthouse may peer inside the
>lawyer's 
>briefcase to look for a firearm or contraband but may NOT confiscate or
>copy 
>the papers therein.  In a similar manner, the government needs a
>warrant 
>to inspect the contents of your personal "snail" mail.
>
>I believe, very strongly, that your laptop and/or your "smart" phone
>are 
>the modern equivalent of a briefcase. They certainly meet the modern 
>definition of "effects."
>
>We now know what many have surmised for a decade or more: The NSA is 
>analyzing the metadata of nearly all of our electronic communications
>(of 
>all kinds) without a warrant and is storing the contents of those 
>communications for search at a later time if the situation seems to 
>suggest that relevant data might be present.  And the warrant for that 
>search is signed by the FISA Court in its Star Chamber.
>
>The result is simple:  your persons, houses, papers, and effects may
>and 
>can be searched without a warrant issued by a court whose records are
>open 
>to the public.
>
>Due Process has been tossed out the window.
>
>Sean
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>On Tuesday, July 09, 2013 12:32:06 pm Ron Frazier (ALE) wrote:
>> Yes, but, as far as I know, not being in the spook community, they're
>> not just vacuuming up every byte from every public server on the
>> planet.  That would be prohibitively expensive and inefficient even
>> for the government.  As I understand it, they've placed taps at key
>> intersections of the data flow of the internet, like gmail, verizon,
>> at&t, comcast, etc.  That way, they get 90% of the info they're
>> interested in for 1/100 of the trouble and money.
>> 
>> So, since this message went through gmail, it probably already
>resides
>> on an NSA hard drive.  And, with all those juicy words, it may have
>> been "flagged" for further attention.  To each his own, but, I'm not
>> sure poking the sleeping dragon is the best idea.  They really do
>have
>> a critical mission to search for terrorists, with due process.  I
>> appreciate that they're doing that.  But, not only that, I remember
>> receiving an official letter from the FCC once that I wasn't
>> expecting.  It was actually just a routine notice regarding my ham
>> radio license.  But, just getting it was unnerving.  In general, the
>> less communications I get from the govt., the better.
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> Ron
>> 
>
>
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>
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--

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Ron Frazier
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