[ale] Presentation challenge

Sat Feb 2 15:23:21 EST 2013

"Again, this is not meant to draw a dividing line between or incite
conflict between command-line-fans, text-file-fans, and GUI-fans.  It's
meant to elaborate on the advantages of having both."

This reminds me of a classic old comment I once heard: "The GUI is the best
way to use Linux because it makes it so easy to have multiple command
prompts open at once."

ed

On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Ron Frazier (ALE) <
atllinuxenthinfo at techstarship.com> wrote:

> **
> See inline.
>
>
> On 2/2/2013 2:49 AM, JD wrote:
>
> Ron,
>
> Installing a GUI on Linux isn't a big deal. It is like installing any
> other program. Heck, install both Mate and Cinnamon and try them out. It is
> just a PPA for each, then you choose which you like to run at login.
> Of course, I'd test out each GUI in a different user account to limit
> setting collisions in the ~/.config/ and other dirs under $HOME.
>
> PPAs really are nice, provided the person managing it is competent,
> trustworthy and maintains it against the main distro repositories.
>
> Not a big deal at all. Just a few minutes to install on a fast connection.
> If you don't like a GUI, remove it from the system.
>
>
> That sounds neat.  I think I'm going to put Ubuntu 12.04 in a virtual
> machine and, perhaps, set up a login for Mate testing and one for Cinnamon
> testing, since you mentioned that there may be conflicts.  I think I tried
> to install xfce once and some of my Gnome settings got mangled.  I don't
> remember exactly what happened, but I haven't tried it since.
>
>
> "Control panel" what's that? Settings are usually maintained in text files
> under ~/.config/ No need for a GUI to manage them, though sometimes the XML
> is easier to handle with some GUI tool. This isn't MS-Windows, the tools
> are hardly mandatory.
>
>
> I'm going to express a different opinion here.  That doesn't mean yours is
> wrong.  Just different.  And, everyone has a different style of using and
> configuring their PC.
>
> I will say that I can sling text files around as good as anyone, assuming
> I know what to put in the text file.  Been there.  Done that, 30 years ago
> with DOS and older versions of Windows.  Almost everything was text file
> based.  I hated it, and was immensely grateful when Windows moved away from
> that trend from XP and forward.
>
> There are still some config files hanging around in Windows, and there is,
> of course, the registry; both of which I can and will edit if necessary.
>
> I far and away prefer to do things from the GUI if possible.  If there's
> something I have to do, which cannot be done from the GUI, I will do it by
> editing text files or the registry if I have to.  If it's something I can
> optionally do, I may not do it at all if there is no GUI interface,
> particularly if it's something I only have to do once or infrequently.
>
> One of the most fundamental reasons that I have this preference is that a
> config file is NON INTUITIVE.  I have to read a man page or help file to
> find out what all the options for all the commands that go into the config
> file are.  As I said, I can do and have done this.
>
> A properly designed GUI is INTUITIVE.  It is immediately obvious what your
> options are for whatever it is you're setting up.  You have entry blanks,
> radio buttons, check boxes, etc., with labels beside them which indicate
> immediately what they do.  In the best GUI's, you can get help on the
> meaning of any entry blank by hovering over it or clicking a help button.
> So, using such a properly designed GUI, I can go in to configure the
> settings for the power, or the screen appearance, or whatever, for the very
> first time, and get the job done quickly by concentrating on what I want
> the settings to be, rather than figuring out what the settings are and then
> figuring out how to communicate them to the system.
>
> I consider the options screens of Firefox to be a well designed GUI.
> Complex, to be sure, but still well designed.  Many of you know that you
> can type about:config in the Firefox address bar and get to their
> settings subsystem.  It's their equivalent of the registry, but I don't
> know what they call it.  I can, and have, tweaked things there too, but
> would much rather do things from the GUI.
>
> I do understand that some things can be better done, or only done, with a
> command line, a chain of commands, or a script.  I get that.  I also get
> that designing GUI's for some purposes is complex and perhaps not worth the
> effort.  However, I do like the concept that many Linux utility and some
> Windows utility providers are doing, of providing all of command line,
> script, and GUI interfaces to their programs.
>
> I should not have to read a man page to be able to configure my
> screensaver, my power settings, my ups settings, or even to run a badblocks
> test on my hdd.  After comparing the GUI, specifically, of Windows 7, Gnome
> 2 (Ubuntu 11.04), and Unity (Ubuntu 12.04), I have concluded that Windows 7
> gives me far and away more access and more control of the under the hood
> guts of my system than either of the two Ubuntu options, through the GUI.
> (Windows 8 is a total step backwards from this.)  This is the way it should
> be.  Now, I will reiterate that I don't think you should be restricted to
> the GUI.  Most things should be scriptable, or accessible via command
> line.  But, I will say that there should ALWAYS be an option to use a GUI
> for most major system configuration functions.
>
> The badblocks command is a prime example.  I posted about some of my
> experience with it in recent threads on HDD maintenance.  It is a very
> useful, and powerful command.  But, the syntax for it can be somewhat
> cryptic.  The first time I tried to use it, it took me about half an hour
> of studying the man page.  To this day, I don't use it frequently enough to
> remember the syntax.  So, every time I want to use it, I have to dig out
> the little piece of paper I wrote the command on, or look up the man page
> again.  Not only that, the starting and ending block numbers are in reverse
> order, ending first, which seems totally illogical to me.
>
> It would be far easier for me to open something like gbadblocks (making
> this up), click non destructive read write scan, check off the drives or
> partitions I want to scan, and enter the starting and ending block numbers
> in a blank, and hit GO.  I still have to know something about the structure
> of the disk I want to scan, and the meaning of the options on the screen.
> Built in help could help with that.  But I don't have to spend lots of time
> finding, and remembering, how to activate the command I want.  They could
> even put a blurb on the GUI screen that says more obscure options can be
> accessed via the command line.
>
> This is the type of thing that makes the OS far more accessible to average
> and semipro users.  Users that are really not computer literate at all will
> still need help from the geeks.
>
> After lunch (for me), I'll do a followup post, and provide a mini
> comparative analysis of how much control I have over certain system
> functions via the GUI of Windows 7, Ubuntu 11.04, and Ubuntu 12.04.
>
> Again, this is not meant to draw a dividing line between or incite
> conflict between command-line-fans, text-file-fans, and GUI-fans.  It's
> meant to elaborate on the advantages of having both.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ron
>
>
> Am I overstating how easy this is? Anyone?
>
>
>
> "Ron Frazier (ALE)" <atllinuxenthinfo at techstarship.com><atllinuxenthinfo at techstarship.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Jay L, and Jim L,
>>
>> Thanks for this info on Cinnamon.  So, it sounds like it's pretty easy to put Cinnamon on Ubuntu.  First, I have to upgrade my machines to Ubuntu 12.04, which I haven't gotten around to yet.  I'm still recovering one of my main machines and installing and tweaking things from an upgrade that I did of Windows Vista to Windows 7.  All my data is still there, but I had to do a clean OS install because of the particular version of Vista and 7 that I was switching between.  So, I had to reinstall and reconfigure all the major apps.  So it's a bit of a mess.  I may have to do the same thing with all my Ubuntu installs.  I don't like that idea, but I've heard more than a few horror stories about OS version upgrades, versus installs.  So, in a relatively short period of time, I have a whole boat load of OS upgrade / install / maintenance to do on multiple
>> computers ... and there are never enough free hours in the day ... particularly with other real life things interfering.  But, al!
>> l the Linux stuff is on my list.
>>
>> Is it just as easy to install Mate as it is Cinnamon?  I may want to go in that direction.
>>
>> Gnome 2 provides a few key features that I really need in my new desktop environment.
>>
>> 1) Full hierarchical menu of all major applications on the system
>> 2) Movable "panels" that I can park on any edge of the screen, to hold running apps (taskbar), status info (system tray), quick access icons, the menu itself, the trash can, the speaker icon, the network icon, etc.
>> 3) I particularly want to have a small CPU usage monitor graph on one of those panels, which I can do now.  In some cases, I also put a CPU frequency monitor and a temperature monitor there.
>>
>> So, my next question is, can Mate and / or Cinnamon do these things?
>>
>> My other concern about the new DE's is
>>   that
>> Ubuntu has removed many options from the control panel and gives the user much less control over things such as power settings, special visual effects settings, etc.
>>
>> So, my next question is, do Mate and / or Cinnamon restore this control capability to the user?
>>
>> And, finally, can I potentially have both Mate and Cinnamon on the system and switch between them?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> Jay Lozier <jslozier at gmail.com> <jslozier at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> Following the links from Linux Mint you get this as the 'buntu Cinnamon
>>>
>>> repository
>>> https://launchpad.net/~gwendal-lebihan-dev/+archive/cinnamon-stable <https://launchpad.net/%7Egwendal-lebihan-dev/+archive/cinnamon-stable>
>>>
>>> <https://launchpad.net/%7Egwendal-lebihan-dev/+archive/cinnamon-stable> <https://launchpad.net/%7Egwendal-lebihan-dev/+archive/cinnamon-stable%3E>;
>>>
>>> The instructions to install are
>>>
>>> Add Repo:
>>> sudo add-apt-repository ppa:gwendal-lebihan-dev/cinnamon-stable
>>> sudo apt-get update
>>>
>>> Install:
>>> sudo apt-get install cinnamon
>>> Logout and Change the session to Cinnamon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 02/01/2013 01:08 PM, Ron Frazier (ALE) wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't mind a presentation on Mint, or on installing Mate or
>>>
>>> Cinnamon on Ubuntu.  Since my Ubuntu 11.04 expired, I have to figure
>>> out whether to fire them and go to Mint or try to put Mate or Cinnamon
>>> on Ubuntu 12.04.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim Lynch <ale_nospam at fayettedigital.com> <ale_nospam at fayettedigital.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/01/2013 08:20 AM, Jim Kinney wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is mint a desktop or a distro? I would put it in the desktop group.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess I've never seen a discussion of the difference but since
>>>>
>>>> Mint
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> doesn't offer a specific server edition, I'll agree with you. Most
>>>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> Mint specific repos are GUI related.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim.
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Ale mailing listAle at ale.orghttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9
>>>
>>> Mail.
>>>>
>>>> Please excuse my potential brevity.
>>>>
>>>> (To whom it may concern.  My email address has changed.  Replying to
>>>
>>> former
>>>>
>>>> messages prior to 03/31/12 with my personal address will go to the
>>>
>>> wrong
>>>>
>>>> address.  Please send all personal correspondence to the new
>>>
>>> address.)
>>>
>>>>
>>>> (PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want
>>>
>>> to
>>>>
>>>> call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate
>>>
>>> energy
>>>>
>>>> mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very
>>>
>>> quickly.)<
>>>  br
>>> />
>>>>
>>>> Ron Frazier770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
>>>> linuxdude AT techstarship.com
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Ale mailing listAle at ale.orghttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>
>> Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9 Mail.
>> Please excuse my potential brevity.
>>
>> (To whom it may concern.  My email address has changed.  Replying to former
>> messages prior to 03/31/12 with my personal address will go to the wrong
>> address.  Please send all personal correspondence to the new address.)
>>
>> (PS - If y
>>  ou
>> email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
>> call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy
>> mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very quickly.)
>>
>> Ron Frazier770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
>> linuxdude AT techstarship.com
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Ale mailing listAle at ale.orghttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from a Linux system.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.orghttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
>
> --
>
> (To whom it may concern.  My email address has changed.  Replying to former
> messages prior to 03/31/12 with my personal address will go to the wrong
> address.  Please send all personal correspondence to the new address.)
>
> (PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
> call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy
> mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very quickly.)
>
> Ron Frazier
> 770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
> linuxdude AT techstarship.com
>
>
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>

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