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Tue Nov 13 08:16:38 EST 2012 

same UI as a computer doesn't matter. Apparently (assuming I'm not making 
a bigger idiot of myself than usual), a large percentage of the population 
sees "phone" as a completely different beast than "computer" even if the 
"phone" in question is working in the same fashion as their "computer". As 
such, apparently "easy" and "hard" don't mean a whole lot.

Wonder if one of the academic admins on this list could convince a 
psychology researcher that there is a deep, probably long lasting, 
research project here??

On Mon, 19 May 2014, Jay Lozier wrote:

> I partially agree, some users will not switch from their comfort zone at
> all. It does not matter if there is an excellent reason such as the OS is no
> longer supported. Others will switch easily.
> 
> Also, if the UI is a problem, many users would have never used a smartphone
> or tablet with their very different UIs.
> 
> The sysadmins could be a bigger problem if they refuse to update their
> skills. But there is a very serious stick available to bring them in-line:
> dismissal.
> 
> About differences between CLI commands, I find the more I work with
> different OSes, distros, programming languages, etc. there is a lot of
> transferable knowledge. Yes there are differences that need to learned in
> syntax and terminology (Ruby hash vs Python dictionary) but the concepts are
> the same. As I use Linux more, the more comfortable I am with the CLI and
> sometime find it more convenient to use than a GUI.
> 
> On 19/05/14 10:57, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
>
>       Uh no. 
>
>        
>
>       My point was that it is the end users that are the problem.  
>       Saying “a desktop is a desktop” is all well and good but the
>       reason most organizations delayed upgrading from XP to Windows 7
>       was because even changes in Windows desktops are painful to roll
>       out to end users.  Telling them they have to go from Windows to
>       Linux (and change many of the underlying tools such as the
>       office suite) would be even more painful.  Not because it is
>       technically difficult but because people are resistant to change
>       AND because many people don’t really “understand” what is
>       happening when they do something.
>
>        
>
>       My discussion of Admins was because we (UNIX/Linux admins at
>       least) are more likely to embrace change if for no other reason
>       than it is “cool” to learn new things.   Having said that
>       however, I have met a fair number of admins that didn’t want to
>       be bothered with learning the Solaris or HP-UX way if they
>       started on AIX or vice-versa.   In Windows admin land MS has
>       been weaning them off of GUIs for a while now and I’ve talked to
>       both the kind of MS Admin that rails against this and the type
>       that realizes how much more power they have with command line
>       tools.    In some shops the MS Admins are the ones who end up
>       working on the first Linux systems. 
>
>        
>
>       That doesn’t mean you can’t have your preferences (I loved
>       HP-UX) but you do need to learn the differences.   For me it has
>       all been fairly easy because I started on DOS went to Novell
>       then to UNIX and Xenix and finally Linux so I’ve seen the
>       progression.    The key is getting the basic tools/concepts and
>       transferring your knowledge to the new platform then building on
>       that with the esoteric behaviors unique to each.   I was first
>       introduced to command line in DOS and to “users” and “groups” in
>       Novell.  Both of those experiences lent themselves very well to
>       learning UNIX where essentially I just had to make myself a
>       cheat sheet of the different command names for the same
>       functions.  (type = cat, dir = ls, copy = cp, rename = mv etc…).
>
>        
>
>       From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf
>       Of Jim Kinney
>       Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 10:30 AM
>       To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
>       Subject: Re: [ale] Chinese government recommendation - Linux
>
>        
>
>       Hmm. Interesting point. Admins.
> 
> From a user perspective, a desktop is a desktop is a desktop. Plenty
> of Windows people have switch to Mac and been productive is a short
> learning cycle. That suggests a new desktop _can_ be learned.
> 
> But admins are another group altogether.
> 
> How things are done behind the scenes is really, REALLY different
> between windows, Linux and Mac (and Solaris/Oracle, and between Linux
> variants, etc). The tools that exist to support admins for large scale
> deployments are radically different between the systems as the
> philosophy is extremely radically different between the systems.
> 
> So I would put forward that the wholesale adoption of Linux will
> depend on the retraining of the existing admins so they are willing to
> tell upstream "sure, Linux will be useful here".
> 
> Ha! Then maybe the Mac admins can work somewhere other than retail!  
> 8D
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, May 19, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Lightner, Jeff
> <JLightner at dsservices.com> wrote:
> 
> While I’d like to think Windows is on the way out I will say that this
> isn’t the first time its demise has been predicted.   Unfortunately
> there are way too many people (organizations especially) that are not
> willing to pull the plug because of the learning curve.   I know
> you’ll all say that Linux is easier etc… but the fact is MOST users
> don’t really understand computers and making them learn ANYTHING new
> is quite difficult.   (If you don’t believe that find out how long it
> took most organizations to get their executives off a blackberry
> products – if they have.)
> 
>  
> 
> I recall just a few years back where China and other governments were
> planning on making their own Linux distros but never saw much traction
> on that.
> 
>  
> 
> It’s funny how things go.  M$’ stated reasoning for creating NT was to
> take over the UNIX market.  Instead they killed off Novell.   Linux on
> the other hand has made deep inroads into the former UNIX markets
> mainly because the admins that do one can do the other.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of
> Jim Kinney
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2014 8:11 AM
> To: Atlanta User Group (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: [ale] Chinese government recommendation - Linux
> 
>  
> 
> Doc format is often required when there will be editing done. Often
> recruiters will strip contact data or even change layout. Internally,
> some places will add notes to résumés.
> 
> On May 17, 2014 11:06 PM, "Boris Borisov" <bugyatl at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I cannot count how many times is been required to send resume in .DOC
> format when I'm applying for IT positions. And this are people from
> IT. For government folk will take a lot more.
> 
> On 5/18/14, Jay Lozier <jslozier at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Requiring open formats is actually OS agnostic but any movement in
> that
> > direction makes FOSS applications competitive. There was a UK
> proposal to
> > require ODF formats for all government documents a few months ago.
> There was
> > some discussion about this on the LO user list and the consensus was
> it
> > would hurt MS as it evens the playing field for all office suites
> Many
> > assumed if adopted that other vendors would be able to add ODF
> support
> > rather easily and FOSS alternatives (LO, AOO, and Calligra) would be
> > competing on merits. It would help Linux because the FOSS office
> suites on
> > Linux all use ODF as their native format However, on the LO user
> list, I
> > think the consensus was users would be more likely to switch suites
> rather
> > than OSes if the proposal was adopted.
> >
> > On 05/17/2014 07:22 PM, Wolf Halton wrote:
> >>
> >> If several governments start requiring open formats, that will help
> too.
> >> Windows is on a downward trajectory.  They cannot decide if they
> want to
> >> stay on the desktop/laptop horse or fully commit to the
> phone/tablet
> >> horse, so they are about to find themselves on their collective
> butts
> >> between the ruts of the trails of those 2 horses, running away.
> >>
> >> Wolf Halton
> >>
> >> --
> >> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
> >> Security in the Cloud - http://AtlantaCloudTech.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 8:47 PM, Jay Lozier <jslozier at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> I saw a link to this article on Softpedia (from Ostatic):
> >>>
> >>>http://news.softpedia.com/news/Chinese-Government-Says-on-TV-that-Windows-X
> P-Users-Must-Choose-Linux-441889.shtml
> >>>
> >>> The article noted the Chinese government is beginning to push
> Chinese XP
> >>> users to consider adopting Linux. It did note that many user
> preferred
> >>> applications do not have a Linux version currently available. But
> often
> >>> there are FOSS equivalents available that are suitable for many
> users. It
> >>> also noted that Russia and Germany are actively pursuing Linux.
> >>>
> >>> My take is this is probably what Linux needs to get market
> traction; a
> >>> very large market to switch to Linux. If the Chinese convert to
> mostly
> >>> Linux hardware vendors and commercial software vendors will need
> to
> >>> support Linux or abandon the Chinese market. Other than the
> unmentionable
> >>> I believe most vendors will follow market trends. If the trends is
> >>> towards Linux, they will follow.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Jay Lozier
> >>> jslozier at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> >>> Ale mailing list
> >>> Ale at ale.org
> >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ale mailing list
> >> Ale at ale.org
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jay Lozier
> > jslozier at gmail.com
> 
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> 
> --
> 
> --
> James P. Kinney III
> 
> Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you
> gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his
> own tail. It won't fatten the dog.
> - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain
> 
> http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> 
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