[ale] Way OT: In case you missed this in the news... Climategate

Wed May 12 11:24:23 EDT 2010

Jim,

I found this interesting article.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/es902148f?cookieSet=1

It about a spot in the pacific with a near surface natural underwater
CO2 plume.  PH is around 6 at the plume and drops off with distance.

Apparently they are just getting into the study of the area, but it
sounds like a great natural lab.  I didn't see anything real specific.
 Especially along the lines of "No coral is living in waters with ph
of 7.5", etc.

Note: The worst case ph prediction I've read is it will drop another
.5 to 7.6.  But then it starts to rebound because we've burned all the
fossil fuels in the world to make that happen and nothing is left to
continue to push CO2 into the atmosphere / ocean.  The optimists say
.5 is impossible because all the limestone in the ocean will buffer
the CO2 and keep it from changing that much.

Note:
Really bizarre is they also mention that 60 miles from that site is
another site where the PH is 1!!!

Nothing is living there!  I find it really amazing that PH of 1 can
exist in a natural environment!

Greg

On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
> There's not point at which ocean life just flat dies that humans will ever
> see as we'll be long dead before then. It's a gradual change in what is
> supported. Some things like a more acidic environment than what is currently
> available. Those species are currently in very limited supply. They are also
> not species that are beneficial to the current ecosystem that supports and
> feeds humans. Thus a change that benefits those species will have adverse
> effects on humans. I will not be happy without my weekly fish intake.
>
> When discussions of a pH change take place without specifying a particular
> region, the location will be the large bulk of ocean water located away from
> river estuaries and at a large distance from freshwater melt from ice
> locations. As for nearly all climate change discussions, the change being
> discussed in not a localized change but a change in the large-scale
> aggregate environment. Local effects of change will be varied - some places
> will benefit slightly while most places will suffer changes that make food
> supply for humans an issue.
>
> Currently, the economics of the US (and the rest of the world for that
> matter) are viewed as rather crappy. But my personal economics are doing
> pretty OK. Extrapolating from my economics to global economics is an error
> in statistical sampling. But to extrapolate from global to local economics
> is valid since it is a narrowing focus of sample set sizes. Law firms that
> handle debt collection are doing damn well these days. I really don't want
> the environment they thrive in to continue anymore than I want the RedTide
> environment to dominate.
>
> I did a bit more digging on the RedTide and I was wrong about the pH aspect
> (I'm scratching my head on how I made that link). Redtide is more associated
> with a temperature rise that any other measured factor. It is also
> associated with increased rainfall (which will have an effect on surface pH
> and salinity, etc as a dillution process). but the mineral salt content
> _should_ act as a pH buffer to some extent. Nonetheless, a temperature rise
> in ocean surface _is_ one of those "we are very concerned" data points that
> CC scientist discuss often. Sadly, between the politics and economics, the
> ability to maintain accurate temperature measurments ofer such a large area
> as the ocean surface has dwindled at a time we really need them to increase.
> The modeling methods based on spot temperatures, satellite data, airplane
> flyover and air movement data have error bars larger than the calulated
> changes. They have done extrapolation on the error bar trends and midpoints
> but even the most vocal CC champions are loathe to use that data as hard
> science. There was a proposal to deploy several thousand solar powered bouys
> globally a while back but I've lost track of that process. It seemed like a
> good idea. Maybe if it was coupled with something like the tsunami
> projects...
>
> I may have made A's in my chemistry but the bulk of that was 20 years ago
> (what's the emoticon for "geezer"?). I didn't even get a refresher as my
> daughter didn't need help when she took it. Hmphfff.
>
> On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Greg Freemyer <greg.freemyer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I decided to look it up.
>>
>> It appears the ocean's PH has gone from about 8.2 to 8.1 in the last
>> 200 years.  ie. a .1 change has already occurred.
>>
>> I did not see anything that said at what point ocean life dies, but I
>> did not look very hard.
>>
>> As to the arctic ice melt potentially helping, isn't it fresh water?
>> ie. Frozen rain?  If so, it's actually got a PH below 7 already, so it
>> melting will just make the problem worse.  (See, I don't refuse to use
>> my brain! (but I'm still not anywhere near convinced.))
>>
>> That made me wonder about the current local PH levels in the ocean.
>>
>> http://www.seafriends.org.nz/issues/global/oceanph.jpg
>>
>> Looks like it varies from 7.9 to 8.2
>>
>> Are we seeing a die-off in the current 7.9 areas?  I don't know, but
>> if so I expect I would have read about it in this little research
>> project.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Jeff Hubbs <jhubbslist at att.net> wrote:
>> > Recall that pH is a logarithm of a ratio...
>> >
>> > On 5/10/10 6:05 AM, Paul Cartwright wrote:
>> >> On Sun May 9 2010, Jim Kinney wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I'm not positive on the total impacts but I pretty sure that a shift
>> >>> of 0.1
>> >>> in pH will be a huge change in what lives and what dies in the oceans.
>> >>> It's
>> >>> that level of change that allows the red algae blooms that  spell
>> >>> death to
>> >>> hundreds of square miles of oceans at a time. That's a localized
>> >>> event.
>> >>> Imagine the fishing that will be available if the only place left that
>> >>> has
>> >>> a pH in the range to not allow red algae blooms is the arctic ice melt
>> >>> current.
>> >>>
>> >> not to pick nits here, but a 0.1 shift in ph?
>> >> I could find no reference to ph in any red tide listing, but I did find
>> >> a
>> >> reference to massive ph level changes that killed fish here:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freshwater_environmental_quality_parameters
>> >>
>> >> Atmospheric inputs
>> >>   <snip>
>> >>    In parts of Scandinavia and West Wales and Scotland many rivers
>> >> became so
>> >> acidic from oxides of sulphur that most fish life was destroyed and pHs
>> >> as
>> >> low as pH4 were recorded during critical weather conditions.[2]
>> >>
>> >> --------------
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Ale mailing list
>> > Ale at ale.org
>> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Greg Freemyer
>> Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team
>> Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer
>> CNN/TruTV Aired Forensic Imaging Demo -
>>
>> http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/23/how-computer-evidence-gets-retrieved/
>>
>> The Norcross Group
>> The Intersection of Evidence & Technology
>> http://www.norcrossgroup.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
>
>
> --
> --
> James P. Kinney III
> Actively in pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness
> Doing pretty well on all 3 pursuits
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
>

-- 
Greg Freemyer
Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team
Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist
http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer
CNN/TruTV Aired Forensic Imaging Demo -
   http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/23/how-computer-evidence-gets-retrieved/

The Norcross Group
The Intersection of Evidence & Technology
http://www.norcrossgroup.com