[ale] question about hiring developers

Tue Jul 15 18:27:41 EDT 2008

Paul:

Your email really helped. It was thoughtful and focused on my unique  
issue, thanks.

I used to live in Phx. I hated it there and loved Atl, so I picked up  
and moved thinking I will ask to telecommute and if they say no, then  
I will try and get a new job in Georgia.

I know lots of people in AZ including users groups, Java, Wireless,  
Ruby, and Ruby on Rails people. Unfortunately, most of those people  
are consultants and are doing well. I know lots of people from ASU  
(the local university), but most need "sponsorship" and this job  
won't sponsor.

I agree that it really is "who you know". I always thought this was  
most pertinent when job seeking, but from your email, it applies to  
many more things.

I really think the point is that I need to network more here and in  
Phx to find the right contact.

It is funny that you mentioned Joel Splosky, I just saw him speak at  
Rails Conf in Portland. I read his blog and always hated him, but  
since I have met him, he is not the antichrist like I made him out to  
be.  I have changed my view of him.

I go to phx every quarter or so, but find that I do not need to go  
that often. I go more often after november ;) but before April when  
it is 8 million degrees again.

I think overall you are correct in saying that if you are good are  
your job, you are usually fully employed and it takes a better deal  
to pry you away.

Chris

On Jul 15, 2008, at 4:36 PM, Paul McKibben wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I used to be a team lead with significant input into the hiring  
> process (I left that company and am now an independent  
> consultant).  I found it nearly impossible to find good people.  As  
> I'm sure you understand, it took more than just finding people with  
> the right education and the right skill set: it involved finding  
> people who KNEW HOW TO THINK, and who could WORK WITH YOUR TEAM.   
> No job board or body shop is going to help you find that.
>
> I am convinced that the only way to find good people is to be  
> involved in the developer community through user groups like ALE,  
> the Atlanta PHP User Group, and any other groups relevant to the  
> profession and skills you're hiring for, and GET TO KNOW the people  
> in those groups.  Also, talk to other developers you trust and see  
> if they can recommend anybody.  The best hires I've had are people  
> who I already knew, or at least who my friends knew.  Forget  
> monster.com and the other job boards--they will not help you.  By  
> and large, the best and brightest rarely post their resumes on job  
> boards because they already have jobs they are happy with, and when  
> they're unhappy, their next job is just a phone call to a friend away.
>
> Having to hire somebody in AZ when you live in Atlanta is going to  
> be a real problem--clearly your strongest network will be here in  
> Atlanta.  Maybe you can convince your management to back off on  
> that requirement.  Otherwise, is relocation a possibility if you  
> find a good person here?  How often are you in AZ?  Any chance of  
> getting involved with user groups there?
>
> Recommended reading on finding and hiring the best and brightest:
>
> http://joelonsoftware.com/articles/FindingGreatDevelopers.html  
> (check out his his other articles, too)
> http://asktheheadhunter.com (usually from a job seeker's  
> perspective, but good info for those on the hiring side too)
>
> Best of luck, and feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions.
>
> --Paul
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 3:42 PM, <ale-request at ale.org> wrote:
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:40:54 -0400
> From: "Atlanta Geek" <atlantageek at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ale] question about hiring developers
> To: ale at ale.org
> Message-ID:
>        <dd7c97280807151140r6f5fae48qf34362c0a3935540 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> When we were hiring 1.5 years ago it was difficult to find a perl guy
> at <$70,000 here in Atlanta even though the work environment was good
> back then.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Chris Fowler
> <cfowler at outpostsentinel.com> wrote:
> > You should compare the cost of living in Phoenix Arizona.
> >
> > At the current gas rate here in Atlanta, $60k could be a bit low.
> > Especially if the
> > job requires driving into the office each an every day.  Luckily I
> > stopped that madness
> > years ago.
> >
> > I thought that if I did ever look for another job that I would do
> > something radical and request compensation based on my expenses.  If
> > they really want me onsite then my compensation will be higher  
> due to
> > $4/gal gas.  If I'm at home then I can pass those savings on to my
> > employer.  Maybe when the employer has to pay for gas they are  
> open to
> > ways to save that money.
> >
> > I don't want to upset job lookers here but what you might want to  
> try is
> > to post the job
> > and not post the salary.  See what hits you get and make  
> decisions based
> > on that.  If you get now hits then possibly there are no qualified
> > people in Phoenix.  If you do get hits then you need to tell  
> management
> > that they need to either look for another developer in another  
> city to
> > work remote or raise their rate.
> >
> >
> > Chris Kleeschulte wrote:
> >> So I am an IT director for a company based in Phoenix, AZ.  
> Really, I
> >> am a computer scientist would agreed to manage a team of 3  
> developers.
> >> I have been in charge of hiring new people for our growing  
> business,
> >> but I am really having a hard time finding people. Not just
> >> "qualified" people, just people in general.
> >>
> >> I live in Atlanta and work from home, but upper management wants
> >> someone on site in AZ. I have advertised on Craig's and with the  
> LUG's
> >> in the area. At this point, is it worth my time to go to monster  
> and
> >> all the big job sites?
> >>
> >> What are your feelings on how to hire quality people in general?  
> I am
> >> a bit unskilled in selecting the right people. I had a pipe  
> dream that
> >> offering a job with pay of over 60K would just bring in applicants.
> >> This job is all linux all day and programming in PHP, Ruby,  
> Python. I
> >> would jump at this job if it were me needing a gig.
> >>
> >> I have also checked what the market rate for this type of job  
> should
> >> pay. This is a really rough estimate, but what should a programmer
> >> with imperative type programming experience (2-3 years) be paid?  I
> >> have friends on the Microsoft side that work as Exchange architects
> >> and they make 120K+. Is this high rate just an anomaly, or do  
> people
> >> on the Microsoft really make that kind of coin?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Chris Kleeschulte
> >>
> >>
>
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