[ale][OT] 08.20.04 on pbs... emphasis on it jobs going ===> u sa

Sun Aug 22 15:06:07 EDT 2004

>>>>The talk a few months ago by Kerry about offshoring being evil and other
publicity has, fortunately, scared some companies away, fearing adverse
reaction by customers.  (Before you go join his campaign, keep in mind that
in his decades as a U.S. Senator he has introduced NO legislation
benefitting IT professionals and has backed adverse legislation and Clinton
didn't do anything either.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh Don't worry, I'll decide what issues are important to me and cast my vote
along those lines.  
FWIW at present The Disaster that is Social Security and federal spending in
general (I work in a Federal office that flushes piles of money down the
toilet) are both higher on my priority list than offshoring.  

I like all this talk about simplifying the tax code and IRS as well but I
don't think it will actually happen.

GA seems pretty much locked up for Bush anyhoo.  
Might be time to cast my vote for the Libertarians.  
I think we might benefit from a little more competition.

Thanks for the discussion all and for the lack of flames.
-Russ

____________________________________________
Russell.Hogg at OPM.gov
x2367

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Toxen [mailto:transam at cavu.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 3:16 AM
To: ale at ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale][OT] 08.20.04 on pbs... emphasis on it jobs going ===> u
sa

On Fri, Aug 20, 2004 at 06:15:09PM -0400, Hogg, Russell E. wrote:
> This is always disheartening, especially the "Train Your Replacement" 
> stuff. I've been laid off and had to move to Macon (yes, it's a 
> backwater). Fortunately I wasn't a homeowner and didn't have any 
> mouths to feed (aside from my own)

> FWIW, there are jobs coming into the US, (though not in the same 
> numbers I'm
> sure) it's all relative, Labor costs here are far lower than they are in
> Germany for example because of the ridiculous labor law there.  Some 3rd
of
> the population under 30 there is "unemployed" if memory serves.  Of course
> their government literally pays them so they aren't exactly starving.  
> (You can do this when foolish Americans pay for your defense - they spend
> less than 1% of the budget on their Military - Again going from memory)
> A guy I work with here has a buddy over there who hasn't worked since
1992.
The doller has lost 20% of its value as compared to most of the world's
currencies, particularly European currencies and even Canada.  This
certainly helps us.  So does many companies who outsourced discovering that
often it's not a good deal.  If you read all of the offshoring advice, they
emphasize choosing companies with highly trained programmers and managers.
Duh.  If they did that here, they'd have good code for a reasonable price.

The talk a few months ago by Kerry about offshoring being evil and other
publicity has, fortunately, scared some companies away, fearing adverse
reaction by customers.  (Before you go join his campaign, keep in mind that
in his decades as a U.S. Senator he has introduced NO legislation
benefitting IT professionals and has backed adverse legislation and Clinton
didn't do anything either.)

> I guess my question is what can be done about it?
> I personally think the Government telling me who I can, and can't do 
> business with sounds nothing like freedom. Tariffs and the like have 
> never had positive results as far as I know. (very little that the Fed 
> mucks with does) All that Smoot-Hawley* stuff had a lot to do with 
> starting the great depression.
That's very debatable.

Most of our "wonderful" trading partners have LOTS of tariffs, import
duties, etc. and it DOES greatly help a country's domestic workers and
businesses if done intelligently.

> This leaves me with one vote left.  My Pocket book.  I'm guessing 
> there are web sites out there keeping tallies of who does the most off 
> shoring. Maybe I'll write all those companies and explain that I don't 
> appreciate it and that I'm taking my business elsewhere.  I think an 
> organized effort by us will serve us far better than asking our 
> government to put restrictions in place further eroding our freedoms 
> (One party eroding from the left and the other eroding from the 
> right).
The three biggest IT offshoring of programmers are:

     Microsoft
     IBM
     Hewlett-Packard

All three are on my "don't give 'em business if there is any alternative"
list.  I'm also phasing out my Mindsproing/Earthsuck connections for the
same reason.

> I'll also point out that innovation means people losing their jobs.  
> People are the only costs of business.
> When you figure out a way to make your product with less raw materials it
> damages the guy you bought the materials from (at least in the short
term).
> When you figure out how to build the product in fewer steps the people
> building it pay the price.
> You save Money and sell more product at a lower cost.
> People in general benefit because more people can now afford your product.

> Then maybe you buy just as much raw material as you did before but the
> system doesn't balance perfectly.
> Blacksmiths who specialized in shoeing horses probably never recovered
from
> the advent of the car.

> GM pretty much destroyed Flint Michigan in the 80s but that cost 
> cutting may have saved the company that employs however many thousands 
> of auto workers today.
That's different. GM cars in the 1970's were junk that fell apart in 2 years
and the workers did't give a damn.

> One of the founding fathers actually described this, He described the 
> welfare state as one where those who benefited from innovation could 
> be taxed to support those who paid the price.  This bears some 
> resemblance to the modern UNEMPLOYMENT program as opposed to WELFARE 
> which got reformed during the Clinton years (Thanks Billy).

> We've had some serious FLAME WARS over this stuff in the past, lets 
> keep this one friendly, I think we all understand and feel the pain on 
> this issue.  Maybe we can have a meaningful discussion about it.
> Does Anyone know of such a web site?  
> Maybe someone disagrees with my outlook and can offer fact to repudiate
it.

> ME ---> Digs flame retardant suit out of dresser drawer -  searches in 
> vain for a helmet, ask Kramer if I can drink from the fire hose.

> (Ducking) -Russ
Flame thrower off.

Bob

> * - Protectionist U.S. trade legislation that raised tariff rates on 
> most articles imported by the United States, triggering comparable 
> tariff increases by U.S. trading partners. The Tariff Act of 1930 is 
> also known as the Smoot-Hawley Tariff, after the two legislators who 
> sponsored it, and sometimes as the Grundy Tariff, after Joseph Grundy, 
> president of the Pennsylvania Manufacturers Association, who was the 
> chief lobbyist for it. See also: Beggar-Thy-Neighbor Policy, Column 2 
> Rates, Countervailing Duties, Imports, Protectionism, Reciprocity, 
> Retaliation, Tariff, Trade Agreements Act of 1934, 
> http://www.asycuda.org/cuglossa.asp?term=Tariff%20Act%20of%201930

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