[ale] New website for H1B [Slightly OT]

[Dan Man]

-----Original Message-----
From: ChangingLINKS.com [mailto:x3 at ChangingLINKS.com] 
To: ale at ale.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:54 AM
To: ale at ale.org
Subject: Re: [ale] New website for H1B [Slightly OT]

> > > He has inspired me to be less troll-like.

> > Um, Ok... In what way?

> Well, I am more carefree now. 

Obviously....

> When I see those supporting the opposing arguments personally
insulting me > (or mine) I usually remember not to get "all caught up"
and I try to mimic > George's style of writing (which is what I was
shooting for but never saw > illustrated).

Not me.... I've not personally insulted you... yet. Sorry if you took it
that way, I didn't. To aspire to be like someone on the list is one
thing, to act like something else, good intentions and all, is
another...

> > Good for you. I've got an ongoing project with "OCR" software
written in
> > "Russia" that I have spent 9+ months trying to get a bug fixed.
Cost?
> > $30,000+ (It's the first hit on Google if you look). I'm glad you
had a
> > good experience with your stock ticker. Unfortunately for me on a
bigger
> > project (read more expensive) I did not have the same luck.

> Maybe Grant can fix the bug. He claims he is a steak. And that is >
definately a 
> steak job. Then again, if you can isolate the bug, you may want to
drop it > on 
> the boards for bids, and then ask Grant to justify why his bid is
three > times 
> as much as other programmers who can accomplish the same task.

This has nothing to do with Grant (I don't know Grant. Hi Grant). You
related your success with "Russian" programming and I related my
experience. Btw, I 'have' isolated the bug. It's in the "Russian"
programmers hands. I'm still waiting. YMMV (and obviously does).

> > I have no want, or need to make you money unless I make money. 
> Clarification: You want me to make more money to justify me paying you
> more 
> money (as a steak programmer - this is the steak vs. meatloaf/really
steak 
> thread). Otherwise, I will stick with the cheaper production cost.

Ahh. Production cost. Man it sucks if someone gives you something for
free and expects something for it... Huh...

> > How about
> > this fictitious scenario, I'll write the code for free. If it works
> > better and makes you money, you give me 1% of your gross income. I
don't
> > know your income, but this still sounds fair. 

> You are correct. I agree. I work for others on these terms and some
work > for 
> me on these terms. Profit sharing and barting work well (at least on
small 
> projects). Large projects are tougher to negotiate.

> Still, I have learned to be "selfish." By convincing others that they
need > the 
> program too, I can offset the cost of development before coming out of

> pocket. I get the software free, support the clients (works "real
good" > with 
> automated software) and don't have to cut you in.

So, what's your gripe? You get what you want for free. You've found the
holy grail... Run with it. Don't come to Atlanta and pee on our parade
telling us how we should work for free and support our software forever
at no cost. All for what? A Stock Ticker? Hehe... Dream on...

> > Good for you, I wish you well. Just don't come in here and try to
tell
> > people that they should be working for $10/hr for the work that they
do.

> I am not trying to tell people they should be working for $10. 
> When you joined this thread, I was asking a "steak" programmer to
justify > his 
> fees. (When I sell something I offer a long list of benefits). My
position > is 
> that it is okay to charge more - if the value is there.

Value... The steak programmer offers value. If you use the word, then
accept it in the context that you use it in....

> Ironically, the opposite is usually true. Microsoft costs more than
Linux. 
> Brand names usually cost more than higher quality generic (etc). 
> Marketing makes this so. My favorite hobby is marketing.

I'm not very popular because I don't think Microsoft costs more in the
long run. I use the appropriate tool for the job. I don't buy generic
macaroni & cheese. Ok well, I don't buy macaroni & cheese at all. I make
it myself from scratch with what ever the best ingredients are at the
time, it usually costs me more. Where does that fit in the equation? Am
I bad if I buy a brand name mac & cheese?

DM
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