[ale] A nation of the immigrants, by the immigrants, for the immigrants

[George Johnson]

There would be PLENTY to fill the jobs.  I know several that are out of work
now.  I have never known so many personally that were in the IT industry
that were out of work.  I am also looking for another job as my company is
starting slide down hill.  Layoffs have hit us hard.  The next one may be
the last one.  I am studying up on Linux, LVM, and networking (in the
direction of a cisco certification)  I would really hate for it to be a
waste of time.

I would LOVE to see that study (false one) that shows a shortage of IT
workers.  That would make a good bedtime story.

George

-----Original Message-----
From: Arafat Mohamed [mailto:amohamed at mail.totalemed.com]
To: ale at ale.org
Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 11:13 PM
To: Greg
Cc: ale at ale.org; discuss at charlug.org
Subject: Re: [ale] A nation of the immigrants, by the immigrants, for the
immigrants

So if the H1-b were to be abolished tomorrow and all foreign workers
were asked to leave by the end of the day, are there enough American
workers to fill these roles? What impact would this have on individual
corporations and the economy as a whole?

Seems to me that the biggest problem is studies showing shortage of IT
workers. Wouldn't it make more sense to conduct studies to the contrary
and asking for a reduction on H1-b visas? This way companies are forced
to hire american workers and the foreign workers that are here have less
of a reason to work for slave wages. Because if there are so many
skilled workers to go around, demand increases wages for them too.

The US might be in a recession, but I don't think this economy nor the
job market will be helped by completely abolishing the visa program.

Then again, I could be completely wrong.


Greg wrote:
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Arafat Mohamed [mailto:amohamed at mail.totalemed.com]
>>Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 7:32 PM
>>To: ale at ale.org
>>Cc: discuss at charlug.org
>>Subject: [ale] A nation of the immigrants, by the immigrants, for the
>>immigrants
>>
>>
>>I've been following this discussion with interest considering that I'm
>>an immigrant (thankfully not on an H1b though).
>>
>>Just a few questions I had and was wondering what sort of answers I'd
>>get. Not trying to be a troll here, just curious.
>>
>>How exactly do companies follow the law (as was posted earlier) in
>>determining whether or not there are no qualified americans to fill the
>>position? Is the law actually followed or is it just one of those things
>>no one pays attention to?
>>
>
>
>
> Currently they do not.
> That is problem #1. See
> http://www.programmersguild.org/Guild/h1b/howtounderpay.htm
> Problem #2 is that academic H1B's are not counted in the totals.
> Problem #3 is that software companies et al are cozying up to Senator
> Hollings & Abraham and others telling them that there is a shortage of IT
> professionals in the US to the tune of tens of thousands if not hundreds
of
> **open and unfilled IT jobs**.  One of the docs (yeah, in doc format too)
is
> here:
> http://www.programmersguild.org/Guild/h1b/library/it1_cappelli_wharton.doc
.
> Dunno where all of these jobs are, but not many of them seem to be in the
> South East US.
> Problem #4 is the foreign countries push in lobbying congress to get us
> (read US) to train more of them via H1B.  One of the biggest body shops,
> Tata, is also hip deep in the Indian nuclear program.
> Problem #5  They depress the market wages to near slave rates.
> Problem #6  The most sad and unjust reason - They are treated like
> indentured slaves, contrary in spirit to the US Constitution (well, before
> Ashcroft exempted foreigners from it any way).
>
>
>
>>If the law as it stands is not being followed, will more legislation
>>short of abolishing the H1-b program solve anything (I'm thinking gun
>>control here)?
>>
>
>
> Yes, plain abolishment of the program is the best way.  If we need
workers,
> then we can legislate them back in, provided we cannot provide them.
There
> is **NO** reason for any foreigners to be here during a recession. Other
> countries take care of their own, and so should we.  Those wanting to be
> citizens of the US are warmly welcomed as long as it is in a reasonable
> manner - meaning if we can accommodate them and they will not be a "slave
> class" to large companies.  Besides, it is just companies ways of trying
to
> get the benefits of taking the work overseas w/o the drawbacks.
>
>
>>The last question I ask is for the benefit of some who wouldn't want the
>>program completely abolished.
>>
>>Is the abolition supposed to be permanent or temporary? If permanent,
>>what happens when the next labor shortage occurs?
>>
>>What happens to those that have to take their families back to their
>>countries (which I'm  guessing are third world countries and therefore
>>not the most desirable place to live)? Does America and her corporations
>>owe anything to them?
>>
>
>
> I seriously doubt *ANY* company will have $0.01 USD of sympathy for them.
> It would be *nice* if the government made their companies fly them and any
> family back in first class, but they came to this country knowing the
rules.
> I seem to recall some countries only letting those in on visas if they had
> an open ticket out of the country, but I could be mistaken. Dunno if it
> applies here.
>
>
>>Thanks,
>>Arafat Mohamed
>>
>>
>>
>>---
>>This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
>>See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info.
>>Problems should be
>>sent to listmaster at ale dot org.
>>
>>
>>
>



---
This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems should be
sent to listmaster at ale dot org.


---
This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems should be 
sent to listmaster at ale dot org.