From eff at dragoncon.org Thu Feb 1 11:38:48 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 11:38:48 -0500 Subject: [ale] Georgia SB 315 Computer Intrusion Bill ACTION ALERT Message-ID: My apologies for the "political" spam but pretty much everyone who uses a computer/mobile is at risk and those who do non-commercial/academic security research are especially at risk. Please see below. ----------- Bad news today... Today I found out that GA SB 315 was pushed through the Public Safety committee yesterday and has already been voted on to move through committee. I was hoping to testify against it but did not realize it would go through committee so soon. The next steps for the bill: It will go through the rules committee today or Monday and could be voted on the Senate floor as early as Monday or Tuesday Feb. 5 or 6 (per my state senator's office, I have already been in contact today). If you live in Georgia or do business in Georgia, WE NEED YOU TO CALL YOUR STATE SENATOR TODAY!!! This bill threatens: (1) non-business related security research including academic research, and (2) could make violations of commercial Terms of Service a criminal act (something as simple as lying about your age or legal name on Facebook). What to do TODAY if you live or do business in Georgia: (1) Go to openstates.org, enter your address, and find the name of your State Senator (not House representative yet, Senate is the top priority). (2) Find the phone number and CALL today, email is not fast enough. (3) Be very polite when you call, you are talking to an assistant or page and this bill is not their fault. (4) Register your concern about Georgia Senate Bill 315 the Computer Intrusion bill. (5) Talking point are (1) academic and non-commercial security research is not protected and (2) Terms of Service should be strictly a matter of civil law and not be criminalized. Failing that, you can ask them to vote against the bill. (6) They have a right to ask for your legal name and address. It adds legitimacy to your request and they can determine if you are a constituent or what your stake is in the bill. This should not be done anonymously. ------ Here is the link to the bill with our analysis: SB 315: The Computer Intrusion Bill Latest bill text: http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20172018/172171.pdf Good points so far: * ?with knowledge that such access is without authority? - requires intent, no accidental infringement * ?A parent or legal guardian of an individual who is under the age of 18? - parental carveout, good idea * ?Access to a computer or computer network for a legitimate business activity? - good start but does not go far enough. Academic, non-business research, etc. * Property forfeiture was removed yesterday, but unsure if it can be inferred from other areas of existing law. Problems: * ?without authority? is not defined. Who is giving authority? Left for the courts to decide. Major problem with Federal CFAA also. * Terms of Service will be swept into the domain of criminal law. TOS should ABSOLUTELY be reserved for the domain of civil law. In most cases, suspension of service by a provider is an adequate remedy. Otherwise, the state is put in the business of using criminal resources to enforce civil matters, an improper use of public funds. * Property forfeiture was previously in the bill but appears to have been removed. Property forfeiture if it occurs, MUST: (1) be strictly limited to those items needed for forensic evidence, (2) in the case of acquittal, all items shall be returned to the accused in a timely manner, (3) under no circumstances should items be sold to provide specific monetary benefit to individual and specific law enforcement agencies, any such revenue shall go directly to the general state fund for disbursement through normal budgetary controls. * In section 2 regarding venue, a judge should be specifically permitted to consolidate cases in multiple locations into a single location for the sake of reasonableness, in cases where violations have occurred in multiple counties. * NO carveout for non-commercial, ethical security research is present. THIS INCLUDES ACADEMIC RESEARCH. * The bill may not be necessary at all. The older legal concept of ?trespass to chattels? has been used successfully against spammers and malware authors. This may be sufficient in the case of computer intrusion. At a minimum I would insist on the following amendments. #1. Ethical security research of an academic or non-commercial nature MUST be protected. The bill only protects "legitimate business activity" which may not include academic activity and independent non-profit security research. Many security researchers do work out the goodness of their own heart to keep our computer systems as safe as possible, and they are reporting findings ethically with no malicious intent. This activity MUST be protected. #2. Commercial "Terms of Service" violations must NOT be construed as a violation of criminal law. This leads to a situation where something as simple as lying about your age or legal name on Facebook could trigger criminal liability. The state should NOT be in the business of using criminal law resources to prosecute commercial Terms of Service violations. This is the domain of civil law and is a waste of precious state resources (given the problems we have with drugs, terrorism, human trafficking, etc., the police and courts have more important priorities). Scott M. Jones Electronic Frontiers Georgia scott at ef-georgia.org From dustin.h.strickland at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 11:49:37 2018 From: dustin.h.strickland at gmail.com (Dustin Priest) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 11:49:37 -0500 Subject: [ale] Georgia SB 315 Computer Intrusion Bill ACTION ALERT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Scott, ??? Thanks for the heads-up. Would you mind throwing this on your website so we can have a link to share? On 2/1/2018 11:38 AM, Scott M. Jones via Ale wrote: > My apologies for the "political" spam but pretty much everyone who uses > a computer/mobile is at risk and those who do non-commercial/academic > security research are especially at risk. Please see below. > > ----------- > > Bad news today... Today I found out that GA SB 315 was pushed through > the Public Safety committee yesterday and has already been voted on to > move through committee. I was hoping to testify against it but did not > realize it would go through committee so soon. > > The next steps for the bill: It will go through the rules committee > today or Monday and could be voted on the Senate floor as early as > Monday or Tuesday Feb. 5 or 6 (per my state senator's office, I have > already been in contact today). > > If you live in Georgia or do business in Georgia, WE NEED YOU TO CALL > YOUR STATE SENATOR TODAY!!! > > This bill threatens: (1) non-business related security research > including academic research, and (2) could make violations of commercial > Terms of Service a criminal act (something as simple as lying about your > age or legal name on Facebook). > > What to do TODAY if you live or do business in Georgia: > (1) Go to openstates.org, enter your address, and find the name of your > State Senator (not House representative yet, Senate is the top priority). > > (2) Find the phone number and CALL today, email is not fast enough. > > (3) Be very polite when you call, you are talking to an assistant or > page and this bill is not their fault. > > (4) Register your concern about Georgia Senate Bill 315 the Computer > Intrusion bill. > > (5) Talking point are (1) academic and non-commercial security research > is not protected and (2) Terms of Service should be strictly a matter of > civil law and not be criminalized. Failing that, you can ask them to > vote against the bill. > > (6) They have a right to ask for your legal name and address. It adds > legitimacy to your request and they can determine if you are a > constituent or what your stake is in the bill. This should not be done > anonymously. > > ------ > > Here is the link to the bill with our analysis: > > SB 315: The Computer Intrusion Bill > > Latest bill text: > http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20172018/172171.pdf > > Good points so far: > * ?with knowledge that such access is without authority? - requires > intent, no accidental infringement > > * ?A parent or legal guardian of an individual who is under the age of > 18? - parental carveout, good idea > > * ?Access to a computer or computer network for a legitimate business > activity? - good start but does not go far enough. Academic, > non-business research, etc. > > * Property forfeiture was removed yesterday, but unsure if it can be > inferred from other areas of existing law. > > > Problems: > * ?without authority? is not defined. Who is giving authority? Left > for the courts to decide. Major problem with Federal CFAA also. > > * Terms of Service will be swept into the domain of criminal law. TOS > should ABSOLUTELY be reserved for the domain of civil law. In most > cases, suspension of service by a provider is an adequate remedy. > Otherwise, the state is put in the business of using criminal resources > to enforce civil matters, an improper use of public funds. > > * Property forfeiture was previously in the bill but appears to have > been removed. Property forfeiture if it occurs, MUST: (1) be strictly > limited to those items needed for forensic evidence, (2) in the case of > acquittal, all items shall be returned to the accused in a timely > manner, (3) under no circumstances should items be sold to provide > specific monetary benefit to individual and specific law enforcement > agencies, any such revenue shall go directly to the general state fund > for disbursement through normal budgetary controls. > > * In section 2 regarding venue, a judge should be specifically permitted > to consolidate cases in multiple locations into a single location for > the sake of reasonableness, in cases where violations have occurred in > multiple counties. > > * NO carveout for non-commercial, ethical security research is present. > THIS INCLUDES ACADEMIC RESEARCH. > > * The bill may not be necessary at all. The older legal concept of > ?trespass to chattels? has been used successfully against spammers and > malware authors. This may be sufficient in the case of computer intrusion. > > At a minimum I would insist on the following amendments. > > #1. Ethical security research of an academic or non-commercial nature > MUST be protected. The bill only protects "legitimate business > activity" which may not include academic activity and independent > non-profit security research. Many security researchers do work out the > goodness of their own heart to keep our computer systems as safe as > possible, and they are reporting findings ethically with no malicious > intent. This activity MUST be protected. > > > #2. Commercial "Terms of Service" violations must NOT be construed as a > violation of criminal law. This leads to a situation where something as > simple as lying about your age or legal name on Facebook could trigger > criminal liability. The state should NOT be in the business of using > criminal law resources to prosecute commercial Terms of Service > violations. This is the domain of civil law and is a waste of precious > state resources (given the problems we have with drugs, terrorism, human > trafficking, etc., the police and courts have more important priorities). > > > Scott M. Jones > Electronic Frontiers Georgia > scott at ef-georgia.org > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From misrerenobis at aol.com Thu Feb 1 12:10:14 2018 From: misrerenobis at aol.com (John Caruso) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:10:14 -0500 Subject: [ale] please continue my subscription Message-ID: <1615258e797-1726-ee8c8@webjas-vad172.srv.aolmail.net> email to owner at ale.org bounces. Thank you -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eff at dragoncon.org Thu Feb 1 13:03:09 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:03:09 -0500 Subject: [ale] Georgia SB 315 Computer Intrusion Bill ACTION ALERT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7dcc6f5b-06da-8804-5b4d-b8d8401e3c19@dragoncon.org> Here is the direct link: https://www.ef-georgia.org/index.php/action-alerts/8-georgia-sb-315-the-computer-intrusion-bill.html It's also on our Action Alert page: https://www.ef-georgia.org/index.php/action-alerts.html On 2/1/18 11:49 AM, Dustin Priest via Ale wrote: > Hi Scott, > > ??? Thanks for the heads-up. Would you mind throwing this on your > website so we can have a link to share? > > > On 2/1/2018 11:38 AM, Scott M. Jones via Ale wrote: >> My apologies for the "political" spam but pretty much everyone who uses >> a computer/mobile is at risk and those who do non-commercial/academic >> security research are especially at risk.? Please see below. >> >> ----------- >> >> Bad news today...? Today I found out that GA SB 315 was pushed through >> the Public Safety committee yesterday and has already been voted on to >> move through committee.? I was hoping to testify against it but did not >> realize it would go through committee so soon. >> >> The next steps for the bill: It will go through the rules committee >> today or Monday and could be voted on the Senate floor as early as >> Monday or Tuesday Feb. 5 or 6 (per my state senator's office, I have >> already been in contact today). >> >> If you live in Georgia or do business in Georgia, WE NEED YOU TO CALL >> YOUR STATE SENATOR TODAY!!! >> >> This bill threatens: (1) non-business related security research >> including academic research, and (2) could make violations of commercial >> Terms of Service a criminal act (something as simple as lying about your >> age or legal name on Facebook). >> >> What to do TODAY if you live or do business in Georgia: >> (1) Go to openstates.org, enter your address, and find the name of your >> State Senator (not House representative yet, Senate is the top priority). >> >> (2) Find the phone number and CALL today, email is not fast enough. >> >> (3) Be very polite when you call, you are talking to an assistant or >> page and this bill is not their fault. >> >> (4) Register your concern about Georgia Senate Bill 315 the Computer >> Intrusion bill. >> >> (5) Talking point are (1) academic and non-commercial security research >> is not protected and (2) Terms of Service should be strictly a matter of >> civil law and not be criminalized.? Failing that, you can ask them to >> vote against the bill. >> >> (6) They have a right to ask for your legal name and address.? It adds >> legitimacy to your request and they can determine if you are a >> constituent or what your stake is in the bill.? This should not be done >> anonymously. >> >> ------ >> >> Here is the link to the bill with our analysis: >> >> SB 315: The Computer Intrusion Bill >> >> Latest bill text: >> http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/20172018/172171.pdf >> >> Good points so far: >> * ?with knowledge that such access is without authority? - requires >> intent, no accidental infringement >> >> * ?A parent or legal guardian of an individual who is under the age of >> 18? - parental carveout, good idea >> >> * ?Access to a computer or computer network for a legitimate business >> activity? - good start but does not go far enough.? Academic, >> non-business research, etc. >> >> * Property forfeiture was removed yesterday, but unsure if it can be >> inferred from other areas of existing law. >> >> >> Problems: >> * ?without authority? is not defined.? Who is giving authority?? Left >> for the courts to decide.? Major problem with Federal CFAA also. >> >> * Terms of Service will be swept into the domain of criminal law.? TOS >> should ABSOLUTELY be reserved for the domain of civil law.? In most >> cases, suspension of service by a provider is an adequate remedy. >> Otherwise, the state is put in the business of using criminal resources >> to enforce civil matters, an improper use of public funds. >> >> * Property forfeiture was previously in the bill but appears to have >> been removed.? Property forfeiture if it occurs, MUST: (1) be strictly >> limited to those items needed for forensic evidence, (2) in the case of >> acquittal, all items shall be returned to the accused in a timely >> manner, (3) under no circumstances should items be sold to provide >> specific monetary benefit to individual and specific law enforcement >> agencies, any such revenue shall go directly to the general state fund >> for disbursement through normal budgetary controls. >> >> * In section 2 regarding venue, a judge should be specifically permitted >> to consolidate cases in multiple locations into a single location for >> the sake of reasonableness, in cases where violations have occurred in >> multiple counties. >> >> * NO carveout for non-commercial, ethical security research is present. >> THIS INCLUDES ACADEMIC RESEARCH. >> >> * The bill may not be necessary at all.? The older legal concept of >> ?trespass to chattels? has been used successfully against spammers and >> malware authors.? This may be sufficient in the case of computer >> intrusion. >> >> At a minimum I would insist on the following amendments. >> >> #1. Ethical security research of an academic or non-commercial nature >> MUST be protected.? The bill only protects "legitimate business >> activity" which may not include academic activity and independent >> non-profit security research.? Many security researchers do work out the >> goodness of their own heart to keep our computer systems as safe as >> possible, and they are reporting findings ethically with no malicious >> intent.? This activity MUST be protected. >> >> >> #2. Commercial "Terms of Service" violations must NOT be construed as a >> violation of criminal law.? This leads to a situation where something as >> simple as lying about your age or legal name on Facebook could trigger >> criminal liability.? The state should NOT be in the business of using >> criminal law resources to prosecute commercial Terms of Service >> violations.? This is the domain of civil law and is a waste of precious >> state resources (given the problems we have with drugs, terrorism, human >> trafficking, etc., the police and courts have more important priorities). From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Thu Feb 1 16:16:58 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 16:16:58 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report Message-ID: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/ Fun reading for anyone buying consumer HDDs in the 4T-12T size. From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Thu Feb 1 17:16:25 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:16:25 -0800 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: On 2018-02-01 13:16, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/ > Fun reading for anyone buying consumer HDDs in the 4T-12T size. Good timing, the project later this year was to get some drives and build up a NAS. I was planning on some WDC Reds which appear to do reasonably well. From eff at dragoncon.org Thu Feb 1 18:00:25 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:00:25 -0500 Subject: [ale] Emergency SB 315 Computer Intrusion Bill strategy session Message-ID: <3bd26405-43ff-e921-5e42-48e557c25210@dragoncon.org> Sorry about the super late notice. Please join us if you can. 7:30PM tonight (Thursday February 1st). To join the Meeting: https://bluejeans.com/547348233 To join via Room System: Video Conferencing System: bjn.vc -or-199.48.152.152 Meeting ID : 547348233 To join via phone : 1) Dial: +1.408.740.7256 (United States) +1.888.240.2560 (US Toll Free) +1.408.317.9253 (Alternate number) (see all numbers - http://bluejeans.com/numbers) 2) Enter Conference ID : 547348233 From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Thu Feb 1 20:42:42 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:42:42 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> On 02/01/2018 05:16 PM, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > On 2018-02-01 13:16, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: >> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/ >> Fun reading for anyone buying consumer HDDs in the 4T-12T size. > > Good timing, the project later this year was to get some drives and > build up a NAS. I was planning on some WDC Reds which appear to do > reasonably well. When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of different charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. From jim.kinney at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 20:59:04 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 20:59:04 -0500 Subject: [ale] Iridium phones Message-ID: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> I scored a couple of iridium phones (no chargers) and some qualcom sat phones (with chargers). Surely this haul is hack toy gold. Ideas? -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete.hardie at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 21:04:23 2018 From: pete.hardie at gmail.com (Pete Hardie) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:04:23 -0500 Subject: [ale] Iridium phones In-Reply-To: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> References: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> Message-ID: Call in a CIA sanctioned airstrike? On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > I scored a couple of iridium phones (no chargers) and some qualcom sat > phones (with chargers). Surely this haul is hack toy gold. > > Ideas? > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related > and reflect authenticity. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- Pete Hardie -------- Better Living Through Bitmaps -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 23:25:18 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 23:25:18 -0500 Subject: [ale] Iridium phones In-Reply-To: References: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0E66A683-C441-4984-A906-EB54F80F68BA@gmail.com> Noted! Might be better ways to light up a target than "aim for my phone signal" :-) On February 1, 2018 9:04:23 PM EST, Pete Hardie wrote: >Call in a CIA sanctioned airstrike? > >On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > >> I scored a couple of iridium phones (no chargers) and some qualcom >sat >> phones (with chargers). Surely this haul is hack toy gold. >> >> Ideas? >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb >related >> and reflect authenticity. >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> > > >-- >Pete Hardie >-------- >Better Living Through Bitmaps -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 2 00:36:21 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:36:21 -0800 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> On 2018-02-01 17:42, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > On 02/01/2018 05:16 PM, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: >> On 2018-02-01 13:16, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: >>> https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-2017/ >>> Fun reading for anyone buying consumer HDDs in the 4T-12T size. >> >> Good timing, the project later this year was to get some drives and >> build up a NAS. I was planning on some WDC Reds which appear to do >> reasonably well. > > When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the > HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of different > charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than the WDC Reds. The others that are on the same price point seem to also have the same longevity. One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives here: https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard-drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 From jonathan.l.meek at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 08:03:47 2018 From: jonathan.l.meek at gmail.com (Jonathan Meek) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 08:03:47 -0500 Subject: [ale] Iridium phones In-Reply-To: <0E66A683-C441-4984-A906-EB54F80F68BA@gmail.com> References: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> <0E66A683-C441-4984-A906-EB54F80F68BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Jim, Are they in working order and you would be willing to part with one? I have family in Puerto Rico and we have been looking for a sat phone for my grandmother to have in case another hurricane Maria occurs to keep some line of communication open. Regards, Jonathan On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > Noted! Might be better ways to light up a target than "aim for my phone > signal" :-) > > On February 1, 2018 9:04:23 PM EST, Pete Hardie > wrote: >> >> Call in a CIA sanctioned airstrike? >> >> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: >> >>> I scored a couple of iridium phones (no chargers) and some qualcom sat >>> phones (with chargers). Surely this haul is hack toy gold. >>> >>> Ideas? >>> -- >>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related >>> and reflect authenticity. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ale mailing list >>> Ale at ale.org >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >>> >> >> > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related > and reflect authenticity. > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 08:52:02 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2018 08:52:02 -0500 Subject: [ale] Iridium phones In-Reply-To: References: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> <0E66A683-C441-4984-A906-EB54F80F68BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: Neither Iridium unit has a charger :-( But there are chargers for the qualcoms. Globalstar is their service. I charged one last night and it powered up. If I stand in the middle of my street it connects to the globalstar satellite network. Of course it has no account so I couldn't make a call. Sure, one is yours :-) On February 2, 2018 8:03:47 AM EST, Jonathan Meek wrote: >Hey Jim, >Are they in working order and you would be willing to part with one? I >have >family in Puerto Rico and we have been looking for a sat phone for my >grandmother to have in case another hurricane Maria occurs to keep some >line of communication open. > >Regards, > >Jonathan > >On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale >wrote: > >> Noted! Might be better ways to light up a target than "aim for my >phone >> signal" :-) >> >> On February 1, 2018 9:04:23 PM EST, Pete Hardie > >> wrote: >>> >>> Call in a CIA sanctioned airstrike? >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale >wrote: >>> >>>> I scored a couple of iridium phones (no chargers) and some qualcom >sat >>>> phones (with chargers). Surely this haul is hack toy gold. >>>> >>>> Ideas? >>>> -- >>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb >related >>>> and reflect authenticity. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ale mailing list >>>> Ale at ale.org >>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb >related >> and reflect authenticity. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 08:54:35 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2018 08:54:35 -0500 Subject: [ale] Iridium phones In-Reply-To: References: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> <0E66A683-C441-4984-A906-EB54F80F68BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F78AE30-1E68-4DC9-92C7-57B5C938957B@gmail.com> Ouch! Rate plan hurts. https://www.globalstar.com/en/index.php?cid=1250 On February 2, 2018 8:03:47 AM EST, Jonathan Meek wrote: >Hey Jim, >Are they in working order and you would be willing to part with one? I >have >family in Puerto Rico and we have been looking for a sat phone for my >grandmother to have in case another hurricane Maria occurs to keep some >line of communication open. > >Regards, > >Jonathan > >On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale >wrote: > >> Noted! Might be better ways to light up a target than "aim for my >phone >> signal" :-) >> >> On February 1, 2018 9:04:23 PM EST, Pete Hardie > >> wrote: >>> >>> Call in a CIA sanctioned airstrike? >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale >wrote: >>> >>>> I scored a couple of iridium phones (no chargers) and some qualcom >sat >>>> phones (with chargers). Surely this haul is hack toy gold. >>>> >>>> Ideas? >>>> -- >>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb >related >>>> and reflect authenticity. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Ale mailing list >>>> Ale at ale.org >>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> -- >> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb >related >> and reflect authenticity. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Fri Feb 2 09:00:08 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:00:08 -0500 Subject: [ale] Iridium phones In-Reply-To: References: <5A51C246-F4D2-4F99-AE79-6FE3128BBF6C@gmail.com> <0E66A683-C441-4984-A906-EB54F80F68BA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <253c30ab-387a-f9c3-396c-5df273c223c7@jdpfu.com> Well, there is always this: https://thehackernews.com/2017/07/satellite-phone-encryption.html and https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/04/23/sat_comm_vulns/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvKaC4pNvck I remember seeing a security conference talk about some guys who captured multiple channels for hours and decrypted the comms - they only heard 1-side of the conversation (the part talking down to their area of the world), but the sentences were pretty telling. War operations. Drug deals, stuff like that - at least in their presentation. Someone on an island ordering a replacement generator isn't nearly as interesting. BTW, cell phone encryption is worse. On 02/02/2018 08:52 AM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > Neither Iridium unit has a charger :-( > > But there are chargers for the qualcoms. Globalstar is their service. I > charged one last night and it powered up. If I stand in the middle of my > street it connects to the globalstar satellite network. Of course it has > no account so I couldn't make a call. > > Sure, one is yours :-) > > On February 2, 2018 8:03:47 AM EST, Jonathan Meek > wrote: > > Hey Jim, > Are they in working order and you would be willing to part with one? > I have family in Puerto Rico and we have been looking for a sat > phone for my grandmother to have in case another hurricane Maria > occurs to keep some line of communication open. > > Regards, > > Jonathan > > On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:25 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale > wrote: > > Noted! Might be better ways to light up a target than "aim for > my phone signal" :-) > > On February 1, 2018 9:04:23 PM EST, Pete Hardie > > wrote: > > Call in a CIA sanctioned airstrike? > > On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale > > wrote: > > I scored a couple of iridium phones (no chargers) and > some qualcom sat phones (with chargers). Surely this > haul is hack toy gold. > > Ideas? From warlord at MIT.EDU Fri Feb 2 09:49:57 2018 From: warlord at MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2018 09:49:57 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> (Alex Carver via Ale's message of "Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:36:21 -0800") References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> Message-ID: Alex Carver via Ale writes: >> When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the >> HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of different >> charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. > > The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than the > WDC Reds. The others that are on the same price point seem to also have > the same longevity. > > One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives here: > > https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard-drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 I happen to love HGST drives, and I'm willing to spend a LITTLE more to get them. The 4TB drives are ~$130 each on newegg. I wish there were more data on the HGST 6TB drives, as they are under $200 each and currently the best $/TB of the HGST series. I currently have 6 4G HGST drives in my FreeNAS server (RAIDZ2). I'm due to add new space soon. ;) -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warlord at MIT.EDU PGP key available From james.sumners at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 09:52:14 2018 From: james.sumners at gmail.com (James Sumners) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:52:14 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> Message-ID: I concur. I have two 4TB HGST drives in my HTPC since the 2015 Backblaze report. Haven't had a single issue. I will definitely be buying more of them when I'm able. On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Derek Atkins via Ale wrote: > Alex Carver via Ale writes: > > >> When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the > >> HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of different > >> charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. > > > > The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than the > > WDC Reds. The others that are on the same price point seem to also have > > the same longevity. > > > > One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives here: > > > > https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard- > drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 > > I happen to love HGST drives, and I'm willing to spend a LITTLE more to > get them. The 4TB drives are ~$130 each on newegg. I wish there were > more data on the HGST 6TB drives, as they are under $200 each and > currently the best $/TB of the HGST series. > > I currently have 6 4G HGST drives in my FreeNAS server (RAIDZ2). I'm > due to add new space soon. ;) > > -derek > > -- > Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory > Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) > URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH > warlord at MIT.EDU PGP key available > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -- James Sumners http://james.sumners.info/ (technical profile) http://jrfom.com/ (personal site) http://haplo.bandcamp.com/ (music) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Fri Feb 2 11:44:44 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:44:44 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> Message-ID: <5974838b-3f57-3b48-f64b-a78f4c5a88de@jdpfu.com> I have a mix of HGST and WD-Red drives in my storage server. Had 1 HGST fail after 3+ yrs, replaced it with a WD-8T disk ($160!!!) and split it into 2 partitions. I use 4T partitions and don't want to force backups to be larger than that. The 8T WD-Red drives were in an external WD USB3 enclosure. ;) Gotta watch those model numbers carefully. Also have some 320G Seagate disks still spinning after all these years. Zero issues on them. SMART data on them shows ZERO issues still, after all this time. Remember when Seagate made really good drives? Ah ... the good-ole-days. On 02/02/2018 09:52 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: > I concur. I have two 4TB HGST drives in my HTPC since the 2015 Backblaze > report. Haven't had a single issue. I will definitely be buying more of > them when I'm able. > > On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Derek Atkins via Ale > wrote: > > Alex Carver via Ale > writes: > > >> When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the > >> HTSG 4TB were the best for failures.? There are a number of different > >> charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. > > > > The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than the > > WDC Reds.? The others that are on the same price point seem to also have > > the same longevity. > > > > One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives here: > > > > https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard-drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 > > > I happen to love HGST drives, and I'm willing to spend a LITTLE more to > get them.? The 4TB drives are ~$130 each on newegg.? I wish there were > more data on the HGST 6TB drives, as they are under $200 each and > currently the best $/TB of the HGST series. > > I currently have 6 4G HGST drives in my FreeNAS server (RAIDZ2).? I'm > due to add new space soon.? ;) From james.sumners at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 12:17:13 2018 From: james.sumners at gmail.com (James Sumners) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:17:13 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: <5974838b-3f57-3b48-f64b-a78f4c5a88de@jdpfu.com> References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> <5974838b-3f57-3b48-f64b-a78f4c5a88de@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: I will not touch Seagate after the last experience I had with them around 2003. I had a drive that died shortly after purchase. RMA took weeks to get me a replacement and the one the send was the wrong size (less not more). Another few weeks to get the correct size. Put it in and it was immediately making chirping noises like some sort of bird. Never again. On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 11:44 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > I have a mix of HGST and WD-Red drives in my storage server. Had 1 HGST > fail after 3+ yrs, replaced it with a WD-8T disk ($160!!!) and split it > into 2 partitions. I use 4T partitions and don't want to force backups > to be larger than that. > > The 8T WD-Red drives were in an external WD USB3 enclosure. ;) Gotta > watch those model numbers carefully. > > Also have some 320G Seagate disks still spinning after all these years. > Zero issues on them. SMART data on them shows ZERO issues still, after > all this time. Remember when Seagate made really good drives? Ah ... > the good-ole-days. > > On 02/02/2018 09:52 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: > > I concur. I have two 4TB HGST drives in my HTPC since the 2015 Backblaze > > report. Haven't had a single issue. I will definitely be buying more of > > them when I'm able. > > > > On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Derek Atkins via Ale > > wrote: > > > > Alex Carver via Ale > writes: > > > > >> When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great > and the > > >> HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of > different > > >> charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. > > > > > > The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than > the > > > WDC Reds. The others that are on the same price point seem to > also have > > > the same longevity. > > > > > > One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives > here: > > > > > > https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard- > drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 > > backblaze-hard-drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8> > > > > I happen to love HGST drives, and I'm willing to spend a LITTLE more > to > > get them. The 4TB drives are ~$130 each on newegg. I wish there > were > > more data on the HGST 6TB drives, as they are under $200 each and > > currently the best $/TB of the HGST series. > > > > I currently have 6 4G HGST drives in my FreeNAS server (RAIDZ2). I'm > > due to add new space soon. ;) > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -- James Sumners http://james.sumners.info/ (technical profile) http://jrfom.com/ (personal site) http://haplo.bandcamp.com/ (music) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 2 12:25:51 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:25:51 -0800 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> Message-ID: <4bea3e9e-f18c-ddea-e3e1-98fb2c20cec3@acarver.net> On 2018-02-02 06:49, Derek Atkins wrote: > Alex Carver via Ale writes: > >>> When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the >>> HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of different >>> charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. >> >> The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than the >> WDC Reds. The others that are on the same price point seem to also have >> the same longevity. >> >> One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives here: >> >> https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard-drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 > > I happen to love HGST drives, and I'm willing to spend a LITTLE more to > get them. The 4TB drives are ~$130 each on newegg. I wish there were > more data on the HGST 6TB drives, as they are under $200 each and > currently the best $/TB of the HGST series. > > I currently have 6 4G HGST drives in my FreeNAS server (RAIDZ2). I'm > due to add new space soon. ;) > > -derek > The problem with helium drives is that helium leaks out (which is why helium is used for leak testing vacuum chambers). The drive is relying on the helium for cooling (transferring heat from the platters to the case) and to keep the heads above the platter at a gap smaller than a typical non-helium drive. When the helium finally leaks out you're left with a drive that is overheating and not far away from a full head crash.[1] No matter what anyone says about their drives having "solved" the helium leak problem, I will guarantee you that *nobody* has fully solved the helium leak problem because helium *will* leak out. I have vacuum chambers at work that are supposed to reach pressures equivalent of interstellar space and I can *still* find helium inside the chamber when I spray it with helium from the outside. [1] The loss of cooling will cause the platters to expand, narrowing the already narrow gap between the platter and the head. The loss of helium also means there's not enough gas to get under the heads. Nitrogen and oxygen are too big to fit under the head reliably to provide the air bearing so the head will crash. From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 2 12:28:26 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:28:26 -0800 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> Message-ID: <593a9bf0-1432-a342-be48-31711dff77d2@acarver.net> On 2018-02-02 06:49, Derek Atkins wrote: > Alex Carver via Ale writes: > >>> When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the >>> HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of different >>> charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. >> >> The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than the >> WDC Reds. The others that are on the same price point seem to also have >> the same longevity. >> >> One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives here: >> >> https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard-drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 > > I happen to love HGST drives, and I'm willing to spend a LITTLE more to > get them. The 4TB drives are ~$130 each on newegg. I wish there were > more data on the HGST 6TB drives, as they are under $200 each and > currently the best $/TB of the HGST series. > > I currently have 6 4G HGST drives in my FreeNAS server (RAIDZ2). I'm > due to add new space soon. ;) > > -derek > Also, just a fun tidbit: HGST is Western Digital. ;) From james.sumners at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 12:31:09 2018 From: james.sumners at gmail.com (James Sumners) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:31:09 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: <593a9bf0-1432-a342-be48-31711dff77d2@acarver.net> References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> <593a9bf0-1432-a342-be48-31711dff77d2@acarver.net> Message-ID: Was bought by them, but HGST seems to still be operating as they were prior to acquisition based on the continued findings of Backblaze. On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > On 2018-02-02 06:49, Derek Atkins wrote: > > Alex Carver via Ale writes: > > > >>> When I looked at the data, I saw that WD-Reds were not so great and the > >>> HTSG 4TB were the best for failures. There are a number of different > >>> charts in the article. Best to carefully check the captions. > >> > >> The HGST are helium filled drives and cost significantly more than the > >> WDC Reds. The others that are on the same price point seem to also have > >> the same longevity. > >> > >> One person did the life expectancy calculations for the drives here: > >> > >> https://medium.com/@simonerni/dissecting-backblaze-hard- > drive-stats-2017-17a90089a2e8 > > > > I happen to love HGST drives, and I'm willing to spend a LITTLE more to > > get them. The 4TB drives are ~$130 each on newegg. I wish there were > > more data on the HGST 6TB drives, as they are under $200 each and > > currently the best $/TB of the HGST series. > > > > I currently have 6 4G HGST drives in my FreeNAS server (RAIDZ2). I'm > > due to add new space soon. ;) > > > > -derek > > > > > Also, just a fun tidbit: HGST is Western Digital. ;) > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -- James Sumners http://james.sumners.info/ (technical profile) http://jrfom.com/ (personal site) http://haplo.bandcamp.com/ (music) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 2 12:34:52 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:34:52 -0800 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> <593a9bf0-1432-a342-be48-31711dff77d2@acarver.net> Message-ID: On 2018-02-02 09:31, James Sumners wrote: > Was bought by them, but HGST seems to still be operating as they were prior > to acquisition based on the continued findings of Backblaze. > Yes, originally. They had to compete in the market for a while after the initial acquisition including recently when China's government allowed them to merge operations as long as they continued to operate independently for two years. That period is over and the two are beginning complete merger procedures. Eventually HGST will disappear and only Western Digital will remain. From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 2 12:55:33 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:55:33 -0500 Subject: [ale] 2017 Backblaze HDD Failure Report In-Reply-To: <5974838b-3f57-3b48-f64b-a78f4c5a88de@jdpfu.com> References: <7aeefece-4a49-1d11-6d92-5c6f60551b36@jdpfu.com> <0a30d4ae-821a-5c7f-e3b5-706df569f1da@jdpfu.com> <3f8787ac-0c0b-ee77-da3c-46dcbdf39f01@acarver.net> <5974838b-3f57-3b48-f64b-a78f4c5a88de@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: <20180202175533.GA3160@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 11:44:44AM -0500, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > Also have some 320G Seagate disks still spinning after all these years. > Zero issues on them. SMART data on them shows ZERO issues still, after > all this time. Remember when Seagate made really good drives? Ah ... > the good-ole-days. I have a set of 9-year-old Samsung 1TB drives that are still going strong. The youngest reports 75,834 poweron hours. However, all but two of the newer 1.5TB models from the same family have died before the 4-year mark. Only one is still going. After that, I switched to Toshiba -- the oldest still in service have 38,535 poweron hours. One failed just before the warranty expired. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eff at dragoncon.org Mon Feb 5 09:15:59 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:15:59 -0500 Subject: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol Message-ID: <98450cbf-b700-37db-609f-939d327f921e@dragoncon.org> You're cordially invited along with Electronic Frontiers Georgia to attend SB315 Lobby Day tomorrow 9:00 a.m. to noon at the State Capitol Building (i.e. Gold Dome). We will meet in the rotunda at walk in level and get a brief introduction to the legislative process. After that we will attempt to speak to our legislators at "The Rope" where we will address our concerns. https://www.meetup.com/Electronic-Frontiers-Georgia-EFGA/events/247440171/ Read EFF's article on SB 315 for more of a background. This computer intrusion law threatens non-commercial and academic security research as could make Terms of Service (TOS) violations a criminal matter. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/georgia-must-block-flawed-computer-crime-bill Tomorrow is actually NOT the most critical day for this legislation but it is a chance for us to get to know our legislators and the process. If the bill is approved by the Senate, we will attempt to testify at the House committee meeting, and that is an all-hands-on-deck alert. Committee meetings are often on short notice and subject to change dates and times at the whim of the legislature. So tomorrow's event is the only date we can count on for sure. Please RSVP to us if you can make it. Thanks, Scott P.S. No signs this time and business attire. From kyle at txmoose.com Mon Feb 5 16:40:18 2018 From: kyle at txmoose.com (Kyle Brieden) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 16:40:18 -0500 Subject: [ale] Slightly OT: System default python version In-Reply-To: <20180127051709.GB27813@xbook2.techmachine.net> References: <5ad24c48-fa40-e7f5-669a-e59855ef69e7@gmail.com> <20180127051709.GB27813@xbook2.techmachine.net> Message-ID: I know I'm behind, but I just wanted to bump this response and say that this is the correct response. If he's learning, he needs to learn right. --- Very respectfully, Kyle Brieden On 27-01-2018 00:17, Ted W. via Ale wrote: > Maybe I'm missing something here but I have to ask why the student > isn't > using something like pyenv to configure the version of python and the > modules they need for the particular project. In my admittedly limited > python development experience developing for older systems (CentOS 5 > and > 6) it was common for the system to have an extremely out of date python > version available in the upstream repositories. Instead of relying on > what I could get from the vendor I would use virtual envs to configure > whatever version I wrote in and install all of the modules necessary on > the target system. Is this not possible or am I missing some piece of > the question? > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 05:03:33PM -0600, Todor Fassl via Ale wrote: >> I got a question from a student who is using python. "I'd rather not >> hard >> code in any python version. Is there any reason to have the system >> default >> be 2 instead of 3?" >> >> He had asked me to install the python-matplotlib package. I was like, >> "Are >> you sure you want python-matplotlib and not python3-matplotlib?" He is >> still >> coding in python2.7 instead of python3 but not by choice. Is there >> such a >> thing as a system default python version? To program in python3, >> doesn't he >> have to modify his code? >> >> -- >> Todd >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 0x89C9D831.asc Type: application/pgp-keys Size: 3053 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Mon Feb 5 16:59:16 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 16:59:16 -0500 Subject: [ale] Slightly OT: System default python version In-Reply-To: References: <5ad24c48-fa40-e7f5-669a-e59855ef69e7@gmail.com> <20180127051709.GB27813@xbook2.techmachine.net> Message-ID: Not really. Using something like pyenv or rvm adds complication that may or may not work. If they are a student then reduction in complexity directly impacts learning potential. Few students are going to start coding at a level that the system's base can't take them. Once the initial skills are gained, along with confidence and a liberal dose of desire, add the packages and virtualization of pyenv or rvm. Until then it is more likely to cause the student to use a different language or to drop programming completely. Except when you watch people on IRC swear pyenv/rvm is easy but the HOWTO pages they point you to don't work and they have no clue. Then it's sort of funny in a sad way. I've been doing this for a while and still don't care to use pyenv/rvm/whatever. On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Kyle Brieden via Ale wrote: > I know I'm behind, but I just wanted to bump this response and say that this > is the correct response. If he's learning, he needs to learn right. > > --- > Very respectfully, > Kyle Brieden > > On 27-01-2018 00:17, Ted W. via Ale wrote: >> >> Maybe I'm missing something here but I have to ask why the student isn't >> using something like pyenv to configure the version of python and the >> modules they need for the particular project. In my admittedly limited >> python development experience developing for older systems (CentOS 5 and >> 6) it was common for the system to have an extremely out of date python >> version available in the upstream repositories. Instead of relying on >> what I could get from the vendor I would use virtual envs to configure >> whatever version I wrote in and install all of the modules necessary on >> the target system. Is this not possible or am I missing some piece of >> the question? >> >> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 05:03:33PM -0600, Todor Fassl via Ale wrote: >>> >>> I got a question from a student who is using python. "I'd rather not hard >>> code in any python version. Is there any reason to have the system >>> default >>> be 2 instead of 3?" >>> >>> He had asked me to install the python-matplotlib package. I was like, >>> "Are >>> you sure you want python-matplotlib and not python3-matplotlib?" He is >>> still >>> coding in python2.7 instead of python3 but not by choice. Is there such a >>> thing as a system default python version? To program in python3, doesn't >>> he >>> have to modify his code? >>> >>> -- >>> Todd >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ale mailing list >>> Ale at ale.org >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Tue Feb 6 14:59:29 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 14:59:29 -0500 Subject: [ale] HDD Deal - 8TB WD External Message-ID: <3f053865-2391-9137-a96b-2af1961ee261@jdpfu.com> $160 8TB WD External USB3 - WDBCKA0080HBK-NESN No code needed. Just order from bestbuy.com Many of the HDDs inside are WD-Reds. This link has more details. https://slickdeals.net/f/11206843-wd-easystore-8tb-external-usb-3-0-hard-drive-black-160-bestbuy From eff at dragoncon.org Wed Feb 7 10:01:39 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:01:39 -0500 Subject: [ale] SB 315 Update Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who came down to the Capitol yesterday. We had a good day and I'm sure we made an impression. The bill was pulled from the calendar yesterday, likely because the sponsor was out sick, and my Senate rep has said it is not on the calendar for today. There is still a significant risk that it will be voted on in the Senate and passed but it appears we may have at least slowed it down. If it passes the Senate, we need to focus on testifying at the House committee. The House reps we talked to were much more amenable to our concerns. Two things you can do today. Email Majority Leader Bill Cowsert and President Pro-Tem Butch Miller about your concerns. DO NOT attempt any mass emailing scripts to bring down the servers, etc., just a short heart-felt email about your concerns should help. At this point 5-10 emails from different people to each one should have an effect. Here is the message I sent to cover the talking points. I suggest you reword it for your purposes and/or choose the talking point that you are concerned about most. Bill Cowsert: bill.cowsert at senate.ga.gov Butch Miller: butch.miller at senate.ga.gov This appeal will NOT go out to social media, thanks! (Mailing lists are "old fashioned" and fly below the radar these days.) Oh P.S. I'm very glad we weren't doing our Capitol Day in the kind of rain we're having today. ---- Dear Senator, I'm writing to express concern about Senate Bill 315, (the computer intrusion bill) and ask that it NOT be allowed to go to the floor for a vote. At the very least it should go back to committee for additional fixes. Problems: 1. The author of the bill has represented Georgia as one of a few states with no law against computer intrusion, but this is not correct. O.C.G.A. 16-9-93 covers "computer theft", "computer trespass", "computer invasion of privacy", "computer forgery", and "computer password disclosure" very adequately. Reference: https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2016/title-16/chapter-9/article-6/part-1/section-16-9-93/ 2. The language of SB315 is overbroad and threatens ethical security research, especially that which is not being done for profit, including academic research. This is a problem as the state attempts to become a leader in information security. 3. Without a specific carveout, website "Terms of Service" could be transformed into criminal violations, leading to a situation where even lying about your name or age on Facebook could trigger criminal liability. As a concerned IT professional, I ask that this bill be pulled from the floor for a vote and be returned to committee for additional changes. Feel free to contact me if you need more specifics. Sincerely, Scott M. Jones Atlanta, GA From eff at dragoncon.org Sat Feb 10 15:52:46 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 15:52:46 -0500 Subject: [ale] SB 315 Computer Intrusion Bill Update Message-ID: <9f851ecd-a6c9-18e2-eea5-ffc2f69a5a66@dragoncon.org> (Please go here if you need the background on SB 315: https://www.ef-georgia.org/index.php/action-alerts/8-georgia-sb-315-the-computer-intrusion-bill.html) Electronic Frontiers Georgia went back to the State Capitol on Thursday and actually spoke to the author of the bill. He was quite agitated on the subject of the bill, but we appreciate that he actually came out to talk to us, and came back after going in for a floor vote. The conversation relaxed once we changed the subject. Clearly he has been receiving negative feedback on the bill. On Monday Feb. 12, SB 315 is scheduled for a vote on the floor of the Senate. We have every reason to believe it will pass, but we are hoping for amendments to be proposed from the floor, or even a "floor fight" which would help generate public attention for the many edge cases that are not properly handled by the overly broad language in the bill. We could really use some C-level help (CEO etc.) from any of the information security companies in the Atlanta area. If you work in information security and could ask your management to bring the weight of their company to come out against the bill as written, that would really help. It's too late for the Senate vote, but we need to focus on the committee meeting that will have to occur in the House. The Revolution WILL be televised!! Senate proceedings start on Monday at 10:00 a.m. EST. All proceedings are streamed on the Livestream platform. On Monday 10am, go to: https://livestream.com/accounts/26021522/events/7940809/player?width=716&height=403&enableInfoAndActivity=true&defaultDrawer=&autoPlay=true&mute=false ...or search for "GA Sen Chamber" as an "Account" (NOT "Event") in the Livestream app. From wolf.halton at gmail.com Sun Feb 11 21:32:08 2018 From: wolf.halton at gmail.com (Wolf Halton) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 21:32:08 -0500 Subject: [ale] HDD Deal - 8TB WD External In-Reply-To: <3f053865-2391-9137-a96b-2af1961ee261@jdpfu.com> References: <3f053865-2391-9137-a96b-2af1961ee261@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: That is a lot of storage for $160.00! Wolf Halton Mobile/Text 678-687-6104 -- Join the Strategic Security Network https://wolfhalton.com On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 2:59 PM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > $160 8TB WD External USB3 - WDBCKA0080HBK-NESN > No code needed. Just order from bestbuy.com > > Many of the HDDs inside are WD-Reds. This link has more details. > https://slickdeals.net/f/11206843-wd-easystore-8tb- > external-usb-3-0-hard-drive-black-160-bestbuy > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Mon Feb 12 06:40:58 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 06:40:58 -0500 Subject: [ale] HDD Deal - 8TB WD External In-Reply-To: References: <3f053865-2391-9137-a96b-2af1961ee261@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: First saw this deal last August, so it isn't exactly new. Perfect for storing all those huge hash files and saved VMs ;) On 02/11/2018 09:32 PM, Wolf Halton wrote: > That is a lot of storage for $160.00! > > Wolf Halton > Mobile/Text 678-687-6104 > -- > Join the Strategic Security Network https://wolfhalton.com > > On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 2:59 PM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale > wrote: > > $160 8TB WD External USB3? - WDBCKA0080HBK-NESN > No code needed. Just order from bestbuy.com > > Many of the HDDs inside are WD-Reds.? This link has more details. > https://slickdeals.net/f/11206843-wd-easystore-8tb-external-usb-3-0-hard-drive-black-160-bestbuy From eff at dragoncon.org Mon Feb 12 09:59:46 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 09:59:46 -0500 Subject: [ale] #GASB315 Senate Hearings Start in a Few Minutes Message-ID: Starting Monday (today) Feb. 12th at 10:00 a.m. Senate expected to pass the bill but hoping for amendments or a floor fight. Streamed live... https://livestream.com/accounts/26021522/events/7940809/player?width=716&height=403&enableInfoAndActivity=true&defaultDrawer=&autoPlay=true&mute=false From eff at dragoncon.org Mon Feb 12 12:37:21 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:37:21 -0500 Subject: [ale] #GASB315 Senate Hearings Start in a Few Minutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <152c6fb8-b8dc-8cfb-454c-c23eeb093dbf@dragoncon.org> The Senate passed SB315 41 for 11 against. An amendment to restrict criminal liability to "malicious" activity failed. The next step is to move on to House committee. I do not yet know when that meeting will be. -Scott On 2/12/18 9:59 AM, Scott M. Jones wrote: > Starting Monday (today) Feb. 12th at 10:00 a.m. Senate expected to pass > the bill but hoping for amendments or a floor fight. > > Streamed live... > > https://livestream.com/accounts/26021522/events/7940809/player?width=716&height=403&enableInfoAndActivity=true&defaultDrawer=&autoPlay=true&mute=false > From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Mon Feb 12 15:51:59 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:51:59 -0500 Subject: [ale] Be very careful if you allow automatic mounts for end-users Message-ID: <8f022e3d-08e2-260d-2f1f-0616f55dc00c@jdpfu.com> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/12/kde_naming_usb_drive_vuln/ has been fixed, but there are likely many more mount-related bugs. Best not to allow any end-users to mount anything, automatically, ever. The power to mount, is the power to own a system, completely. And it always will be. From hooterpincher at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 10:37:21 2018 From: hooterpincher at gmail.com (Charles Shapiro) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:37:21 -0500 Subject: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol In-Reply-To: <98450cbf-b700-37db-609f-939d327f921e@dragoncon.org> References: <98450cbf-b700-37db-609f-939d327f921e@dragoncon.org> Message-ID: This stupid law has made TechDirt.. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180212/18002339217/georgia-senate-thinks-it-can-fix-election-security-issues-criminalizing-password-sharing-security-research.shtml -- CHS On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Scott M. Jones via Ale wrote: > You're cordially invited along with Electronic Frontiers Georgia to > attend SB315 Lobby Day tomorrow 9:00 a.m. to noon at the State Capitol > Building (i.e. Gold Dome). We will meet in the rotunda at walk in level > and get a brief introduction to the legislative process. After that we > will attempt to speak to our legislators at "The Rope" where we will > address our concerns. > > https://www.meetup.com/Electronic-Frontiers-Georgia-EFGA/events/247440171/ > > Read EFF's article on SB 315 for more of a background. This computer > intrusion law threatens non-commercial and academic security research as > could make Terms of Service (TOS) violations a criminal matter. > > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/georgia-must-block- > flawed-computer-crime-bill > > Tomorrow is actually NOT the most critical day for this legislation but > it is a chance for us to get to know our legislators and the process. > If the bill is approved by the Senate, we will attempt to testify at the > House committee meeting, and that is an all-hands-on-deck alert. > Committee meetings are often on short notice and subject to change dates > and times at the whim of the legislature. So tomorrow's event is the > only date we can count on for sure. > > Please RSVP to us if you can make it. > > Thanks, > Scott > > P.S. No signs this time and business attire. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 12:02:39 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 12:02:39 -0500 Subject: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol In-Reply-To: References: <98450cbf-b700-37db-609f-939d327f921e@dragoncon.org> Message-ID: <1518714159.3329.8.camel@gmail.com> And NPR this morning. Pretty much anytime GA makes NPR, it's embarrassing. Lawmakers who can barely spell "windows" get to make decisions about computer security and actively ignore the experts in the field. The headlines need to be "Lawmakers in GA help Russia overrun elections by banning computer security research" On Thu, 2018-02-15 at 10:37 -0500, Charles Shapiro via Ale wrote: > This stupid law has made TechDirt.. > > https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180212/18002339217/georgia-senate > -thinks-it-can-fix-election-security-issues-criminalizing-password- > sharing-security-research.shtml > > -- CHS > > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Scott M. Jones via Ale > wrote: > > You're cordially invited along with Electronic Frontiers Georgia to > > > > attend SB315 Lobby Day tomorrow 9:00 a.m. to noon at the State > > Capitol > > > > Building (i.e. Gold Dome). We will meet in the rotunda at walk in > > level > > > > and get a brief introduction to the legislative process. After > > that we > > > > will attempt to speak to our legislators at "The Rope" where we > > will > > > > address our concerns. > > > > > > > > https://www.meetup.com/Electronic-Frontiers-Georgia-EFGA/events/247 > > 440171/ > > > > > > > > Read EFF's article on SB 315 for more of a background. This > > computer > > > > intrusion law threatens non-commercial and academic security > > research as > > > > could make Terms of Service (TOS) violations a criminal matter. > > > > > > > > https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/georgia-must-block-flawed-com > > puter-crime-bill > > > > > > > > Tomorrow is actually NOT the most critical day for this legislation > > but > > > > it is a chance for us to get to know our legislators and the > > process. > > > > If the bill is approved by the Senate, we will attempt to testify > > at the > > > > House committee meeting, and that is an all-hands-on-deck alert. > > > > Committee meetings are often on short notice and subject to change > > dates > > > > and times at the whim of the legislature. So tomorrow's event is > > the > > > > only date we can count on for sure. > > > > > > > > Please RSVP to us if you can make it. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > P.S. No signs this time and business attire. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Ale mailing list > > > > Ale at ale.org > > > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > > > > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > > > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eff at dragoncon.org Thu Feb 15 14:01:46 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 14:01:46 -0500 Subject: [ale] Georgia SB 315 Update (the latest) Message-ID: <25a8be92-2917-1ac0-ec5a-bf3561a4e9df@dragoncon.org> SB 315 has passed first and second reading in the House and is now assigned to the Public Safety and Homeland Security Committee in the House. I expect it could be in committee as early as Tuesday next week. No committee meetings will be held tomorrow or Monday due to the holiday. We will have to check the schedule every day in order to catch it. We may have to announce the committee meeting with very short notice, maybe just hours or even (gulp) minutes. It's a common trick with unpopular legislation to announce the committee meeting on very short notice and/or move up the time at the last minute to throw off any opposition. Welcome to Georgia politics. As opposition we don't control the schedule. http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/Display/20172018/SB/315 From eff at dragoncon.org Thu Feb 15 15:49:01 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 15:49:01 -0500 Subject: [ale] Georgia SB 315 Update (the latest) In-Reply-To: <25a8be92-2917-1ac0-ec5a-bf3561a4e9df@dragoncon.org> References: <25a8be92-2917-1ac0-ec5a-bf3561a4e9df@dragoncon.org> Message-ID: <0b29699a-3799-647f-b101-85a525b0fff0@dragoncon.org> Just heard from a credible source that SB 315 has been moved to the Judiciary Non-Civil committee. http://www.house.ga.gov/COMMITTEES/en-US/committee.aspx?Committee=146&Session=25 On 2/15/18 2:01 PM, Scott M. Jones wrote: > SB 315 has passed first and second reading in the House and is now > assigned to the Public Safety and Homeland Security Committee in the > House. I expect it could be in committee as early as Tuesday next week. > > No committee meetings will be held tomorrow or Monday due to the holiday. > > We will have to check the schedule every day in order to catch it. We > may have to announce the committee meeting with very short notice, maybe > just hours or even (gulp) minutes. > > It's a common trick with unpopular legislation to announce the committee > meeting on very short notice and/or move up the time at the last minute > to throw off any opposition. Welcome to Georgia politics. As > opposition we don't control the schedule. > > http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/Display/20172018/SB/315 > From durtybill at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 21:06:05 2018 From: durtybill at gmail.com (William Wylde) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 21:06:05 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do you still get all your drivers & crap loaded that way? On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > heh, heh,. > > Edit your grub kernel line and append init=/bin/bash > > no systemd. > > > -- > > James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a > jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a > dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark > Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- -- ?Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.? ? Mark Twain -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Thu Feb 15 22:01:53 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:01:53 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> It's pretty much the same as run level 1. If the initrd loads the driver, it in. If it's loaded by a startup process, nope. So it's a rather crap-free environment. Note that this won't work without an unlocked encrypted filesystem and/or a password locked grub. But it's a great way to get a kernel only environment. Sort of like Linux circa 1992 but modern stuff installed. On February 15, 2018 9:06:05 PM EST, William Wylde wrote: >Do you still get all your drivers & crap loaded that way? > > >On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale >wrote: > >> heh, heh,. >> >> Edit your grub kernel line and append init=/bin/bash >> >> no systemd. >> >> >> -- >> >> James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to >build a >> jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like >feeding a >> dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 >Mark >> Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> > > >-- >-- >?Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people >always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can >become great.? > >? Mark Twain -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwc at TheWorld.com Fri Feb 16 00:13:48 2018 From: kwc at TheWorld.com (Ken Cochran) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 00:13:48 -0500 Subject: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol In-Reply-To: <1518714159.3329.8.camel@gmail.com> References: <98450cbf-b700-37db-609f-939d327f921e@dragoncon.org> <1518714159.3329.8.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201802160513.w1G5Dmt1023695@shell02.TheWorld.com> Can't find the link/article on NPR's site; was it on WABE or GPB locally instead? Have a link? Thanks, -k > To: Charles Shapiro , > Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts > , > "Scott M. Jones" > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 12:02:39 -0500 > Subject: Re: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol > From: Jim Kinney via Ale > > > And NPR this morning. > > Pretty much anytime GA makes NPR, it's embarrassing. > > Lawmakers who can barely spell "windows" get to make decisions about > computer security and actively ignore the experts in the field. > > The headlines need to be "Lawmakers in GA help Russia overrun elections > by banning computer security research" > > On Thu, 2018-02-15 at 10:37 -0500, Charles Shapiro via Ale wrote: > > This stupid law has made TechDirt.. > > > > https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180212/18002339217/georgia-senate > > -thinks-it-can-fix-election-security-issues-criminalizing-password- > > sharing-security-research.shtml > > > > -- CHS From eff at dragoncon.org Fri Feb 16 06:40:05 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 06:40:05 -0500 Subject: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol In-Reply-To: <201802160513.w1G5Dmt1023695@shell02.TheWorld.com> References: <98450cbf-b700-37db-609f-939d327f921e@dragoncon.org> <1518714159.3329.8.camel@gmail.com> <201802160513.w1G5Dmt1023695@shell02.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: https://www.wabe.org/ga-senate-passes-bill-criminalizing-unauthorized-computer-access/ > On Feb 16, 2018, at 12:13 AM, Ken Cochran via Ale wrote: > > Can't find the link/article on NPR's site; was it on WABE or > GPB locally instead? Have a link? Thanks, -k > >> To: Charles Shapiro , >> Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts >> , >> "Scott M. Jones" >> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 12:02:39 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol >> From: Jim Kinney via Ale >> >> >> And NPR this morning. >> >> Pretty much anytime GA makes NPR, it's embarrassing. >> >> Lawmakers who can barely spell "windows" get to make decisions about >> computer security and actively ignore the experts in the field. >> >> The headlines need to be "Lawmakers in GA help Russia overrun elections >> by banning computer security research" >> >>> On Thu, 2018-02-15 at 10:37 -0500, Charles Shapiro via Ale wrote: >>> This stupid law has made TechDirt.. >>> >>> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180212/18002339217/georgia-senate >>> -thinks-it-can-fix-election-security-issues-criminalizing-password- >>> sharing-security-research.shtml >>> >>> -- CHS > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 07:18:53 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 07:18:53 -0500 Subject: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol In-Reply-To: <201802160513.w1G5Dmt1023695@shell02.TheWorld.com> References: <98450cbf-b700-37db-609f-939d327f921e@dragoncon.org> <1518714159.3329.8.camel@gmail.com> <201802160513.w1G5Dmt1023695@shell02.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <18EFA565-7773-498B-9859-B2FF092BA8E0@gmail.com> I think it was one of the local sections on wabe On February 16, 2018 12:13:48 AM EST, Ken Cochran wrote: >Can't find the link/article on NPR's site; was it on WABE or >GPB locally instead? Have a link? Thanks, -k > >> To: Charles Shapiro , >> Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts >> , >> "Scott M. Jones" >> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 12:02:39 -0500 >> Subject: Re: [ale] GA SB315 Lobby Day TOMORROW at the State Capitol >> From: Jim Kinney via Ale >> >> >> And NPR this morning. >> >> Pretty much anytime GA makes NPR, it's embarrassing. >> >> Lawmakers who can barely spell "windows" get to make decisions about >> computer security and actively ignore the experts in the field. >> >> The headlines need to be "Lawmakers in GA help Russia overrun >elections >> by banning computer security research" >> >> On Thu, 2018-02-15 at 10:37 -0500, Charles Shapiro via Ale wrote: >> > This stupid law has made TechDirt.. >> > >> > >https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20180212/18002339217/georgia-senate >> > -thinks-it-can-fix-election-security-issues-criminalizing-password- >> > sharing-security-research.shtml >> > >> > -- CHS -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Fri Feb 16 10:06:51 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:06:51 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? Message-ID: I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. Anyone know what happened? Web searches haven't found anything. Is it just my servers? From questy at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 10:26:14 2018 From: questy at gmail.com (Jerald Sheets) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:26:14 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ^*$ in your body checks for Postfix? :-D ?j > On Feb 16, 2018, at 10:06 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > > > I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily > reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. > > Anyone know what happened? > > Web searches haven't found anything. > > Is it just my servers? > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 874 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 10:33:50 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:33:50 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F8AD182-396F-46D1-81D9-BF50DB05C6C6@gmail.com> Sweet! The NSA filters work better than planned. Hey! Who are you and why are wearing a black mask? Mrrff! Ow! ..... On February 16, 2018 10:26:14 AM EST, Jerald Sheets via Ale wrote: >^*$ > >in your body checks for Postfix? > > >:-D > > >?j > > > >> On Feb 16, 2018, at 10:06 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: >> >> >> I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway >daily >> reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. >> >> Anyone know what happened? >> >> Web searches haven't found anything. >> >> Is it just my servers? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neal at mnopltd.com Fri Feb 16 10:43:19 2018 From: neal at mnopltd.com (Neal Rhodes) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:43:19 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1518795800.23706.197.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> I used to drive myself to a foaming rage running a local Postfix server. Just watching the constant attempts of spammers, eating up MY BANDWIDTH, trying to send me spam. Blacklist, greylist, whatever. Then I dumped the problem on goDaddy. Don't know, don't care. Remember: the cloak of "Somebody-else's-problem" is much less expensive, and generally as good as the cloak of invisibility. On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 10:06 -0500, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily > reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. > > Anyone know what happened? > > Web searches haven't found anything. > > Is it just my servers? > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From terrorpup at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 10:47:26 2018 From: terrorpup at gmail.com (Chuck Payne) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:47:26 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: <1518795800.23706.197.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> References: <1518795800.23706.197.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> Message-ID: Yeah, I am moving to Google Suite, $5 an account. Yeah, Yeah, I know everyone hates Google, but my last job they were our mail server and I was one of the admins. It easy to use. Plus, no more late night fight with postfix. On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote: > I used to drive myself to a foaming rage running a local Postfix server. > Just watching the constant attempts of spammers, eating up MY BANDWIDTH, > trying to send me spam. Blacklist, greylist, whatever. > > Then I dumped the problem on goDaddy. Don't know, don't care. > > Remember: the cloak of "Somebody-else's-problem" is much less expensive, > and generally as good as the cloak of invisibility. > > > > On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 10:06 -0500, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > > I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily > reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. > > Anyone know what happened? > > Web searches haven't found anything. > > Is it just my servers? > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing listAle at ale.orghttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- Terror PUP a.k.a Chuck "PUP" Payne ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein Register Linux Userid: 155363 Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From laytonjb at att.net Fri Feb 16 11:02:54 2018 From: laytonjb at att.net (Jeff Layton) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:02:54 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: <3F8AD182-396F-46D1-81D9-BF50DB05C6C6@gmail.com> References: <3F8AD182-396F-46D1-81D9-BF50DB05C6C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm pushing my congressional representatives to add money to the NSA fund for the specific purpose of being able to restore people's email. They have them all anyway - just a little bit more and we have email backup!!! > Sweet! The NSA filters work better than planned. > > Hey! Who are you and why are wearing a black mask? > > Mrrff! Ow! > > > ..... > > On February 16, 2018 10:26:14 AM EST, Jerald Sheets via Ale > wrote: > > ^*$ > > in your body checks for Postfix? > > > :-D > > > ?j > > > > On Feb 16, 2018, at 10:06 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale > wrote: I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the > email gateway daily reports. They've effectively gone to zero > this week. Anyone know what happened? Web searches haven't > found anything. Is it just my servers? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Ale mailing list Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale See JOBS, ANNOUNCE > and SCHOOLS lists at http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb > related and reflect authenticity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From slitt at troubleshooters.com Fri Feb 16 11:20:05 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:20:05 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> > >On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale > >wrote: > > > >> heh, heh,. > >> > >> Edit your grub kernel line and append init=/bin/bash > >> > >> no systemd. > On February 15, 2018 9:06:05 PM EST, William Wylde > wrote: > >Do you still get all your drivers & crap loaded that way? > > On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:01:53 -0500 Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > It's pretty much the same as run level 1. If the initrd loads the > driver, it in. That's a big "if". Systemd is usually interwoven with the initramfs and usually implies big, complicated initramfs'. > If it's loaded by a startup process, nope. > > So it's a rather crap-free environment. init=/bin/bash is an old time diagnostic to debug early boot and init. It's not a substitute for any init system. One more thing: This is a diagnostic, not a solution for "systemd haters". And speaking of the phrase "systemd haters", a more accurate representation would be "lovers of simplicity, modularity, and functionality." SteveT From leamhall at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 11:22:20 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:22:20 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:20 AM, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > One more thing: This is a diagnostic, not a solution for "systemd > haters". And speaking of the phrase "systemd haters", a more accurate > representation would be "lovers of simplicity, modularity, and > functionality." I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." From james.sumners at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 11:44:02 2018 From: james.sumners at gmail.com (James Sumners) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:44:02 +0000 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope the majority were aware of how to specify the program to run after kernel booting. I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that last guy didn't leave us. On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:20 Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > > > >On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale > > >wrote: > > > > > >> heh, heh,. > > >> > > >> Edit your grub kernel line and append init=/bin/bash > > >> > > >> no systemd. > > > On February 15, 2018 9:06:05 PM EST, William Wylde > > wrote: > > >Do you still get all your drivers & crap loaded that way? > > > > > > > On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:01:53 -0500 > Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > > It's pretty much the same as run level 1. If the initrd loads the > > driver, it in. > > That's a big "if". Systemd is usually interwoven with the initramfs and > usually implies big, complicated initramfs'. > > > > If it's loaded by a startup process, nope. > > > > So it's a rather crap-free environment. > > init=/bin/bash is an old time diagnostic to debug early boot and init. > It's not a substitute for any init system. > > > One more thing: This is a diagnostic, not a solution for "systemd > haters". And speaking of the phrase "systemd haters", a more accurate > representation would be "lovers of simplicity, modularity, and > functionality." > > SteveT > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -- James Sumners http://james.sumners.info/ (technical profile) http://jrfom.com/ (personal site) http://haplo.bandcamp.com/ (music) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete.hardie at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 11:45:47 2018 From: pete.hardie at gmail.com (Pete Hardie) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:45:47 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: <3F8AD182-396F-46D1-81D9-BF50DB05C6C6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, but you'd have to file a FOIA request for it On Feb 16, 2018 11:03, "Jeff Layton via Ale" wrote: > I'm pushing my congressional representatives to add money to the NSA fund > for the specific purpose of being able to restore people's email. They have > them all anyway - just a little bit more and we have email backup!!! > > Sweet! The NSA filters work better than planned. > > Hey! Who are you and why are wearing a black mask? > > Mrrff! Ow! > > > ..... > > On February 16, 2018 10:26:14 AM EST, Jerald Sheets via Ale > wrote: >> >> ^*$ >> >> in your body checks for Postfix? >> >> >> :-D >> >> >> ?j >> >> >> >>> >>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 10:06 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: >>> >>> >>> I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily >>> reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. >>> >>> Anyone know what happened? >>> >>> Web searches haven't found anything. >>> >>> Is it just my servers? >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Ale mailing list >>> Ale at ale.org >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related > and reflect authenticity. > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing listAle at ale.orghttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 11:52:03 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." What does that even mean? BTW, "Linux" is not a hand-wavey concept or a state of being. It's just an operating system kernel, and is rather useless on its own without the rest of an operating system around it. The TIMTOWTDI principle definitely applies. At the same time, one shouldn't discount TIMTOWTDIBSCINABTE either. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com Fri Feb 16 11:57:04 2018 From: James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com (James Taylor) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:57:04 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1518795800.23706.197.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> Message-ID: <5A86C710020000750005180B@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> I've been running my own mail server for the past 20 years. I pay almost no attention to it or the spam filter. If I do have a rare problem, I don't have to wait around for to acknowledge/fix the problem. -jt James Taylor 678-697-9420 james.taylor at eastcobbgroup.com >>> Chuck Payne via Ale 2/16/2018 10:47 AM >>> Yeah, I am moving to Google Suite, $5 an account. Yeah, Yeah, I know everyone hates Google, but my last job they were our mail server and I was one of the admins. It easy to use. Plus, no more late night fight with postfix. On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:43 AM, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote: > I used to drive myself to a foaming rage running a local Postfix server. > Just watching the constant attempts of spammers, eating up MY BANDWIDTH, > trying to send me spam. Blacklist, greylist, whatever. > > Then I dumped the problem on goDaddy. Don't know, don't care. > > Remember: the cloak of "Somebody-else's-problem" is much less expensive, > and generally as good as the cloak of invisibility. > > > > On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 10:06 -0500, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > > I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily > reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. > > Anyone know what happened? > > Web searches haven't found anything. > > Is it just my servers? > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing listAle at ale.orghttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists athttp://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- Terror PUP a.k.a Chuck "PUP" Payne ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein Register Linux Userid: 155363 Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 11:57:54 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:57:54 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <1518800274.3771.1.camel@gmail.com> I prefer 'my way or the highway'. Maybe I took too many of the BOFH practices to daily use. NAH! On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 11:52 -0500, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." > > What does that even mean? > > BTW, "Linux" is not a hand-wavey concept or a state of being. It's > just > an operating system kernel, and is rather useless on its own without > the > rest of an operating system around it. The TIMTOWTDI principle > definitely applies. > > At the same time, one shouldn't discount TIMTOWTDIBSCINABTE either. > > - Solomon > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philip at turmel.org Fri Feb 16 12:02:11 2018 From: philip at turmel.org (Phil Turmel) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:02:11 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <386139c8-e314-1269-2790-8ba1674a444f@turmel.org> I'm seeing a major reduction, but not zero. On 02/16/2018 10:06 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > > I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily > reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. > > Anyone know what happened? > > Web searches haven't found anything. > > Is it just my servers? From leamhall at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 12:06:38 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:06:38 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: >> I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." > > What does that even mean? > > BTW, "Linux" is not a hand-wavey concept or a state of being. It's just > an operating system kernel, and is rather useless on its own without the > rest of an operating system around it. The TIMTOWTDI principle > definitely applies. > > At the same time, one shouldn't discount TIMTOWTDIBSCINABTE either. > > - Solomon There are many ways not to do it; systemd is one of those ways. If you need containers and micro-virtualization below the level of "OS" then something like systemd could be useful. From a standpoint of the many things that made Linux great, as a kernel and a concept, systemd is not a good thing. Leam From damon at damtek.com Fri Feb 16 12:24:27 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:24:27 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: What's a root password?? Is that like a certificate thingy? On 02/16/2018 11:44 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: > I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope the majority > were aware of how to specify the program to run after kernel booting. > I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that last guy didn't > leave us. > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:20 Steve Litt via Ale > wrote: > > > > >On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 5:11 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale > > > > >wrote: > > > > > >> heh, heh,. > > >> > > >> Edit your grub kernel line and append init=/bin/bash > > >> > > >> no systemd. > > > On February 15, 2018 9:06:05 PM EST, William Wylde > > > wrote: > > >Do you still get all your drivers & crap loaded that way? > > > > > > > On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 22:01:53 -0500 > Jim Kinney via Ale > wrote: > > It's pretty much the same as run level 1. If the initrd loads the > > driver, it in. > > That's a big "if". Systemd is usually interwoven with the > initramfs and > usually implies big, complicated initramfs'. > > > > If it's loaded by a startup process, nope. > > > > So it's a rather crap-free environment. > > init=/bin/bash is an old time diagnostic to debug early boot and init. > It's not a substitute for any init system. > > > One more thing: This is a diagnostic, not a solution for "systemd > haters". And speaking of the phrase "systemd haters", a more accurate > representation would be "lovers of simplicity, modularity, and > functionality." > > SteveT > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- > James Sumners > http://james.sumners.info/ (technical profile) > http://jrfom.com/ (personal site) > http://haplo.bandcamp.com/ (music) > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From philip at turmel.org Fri Feb 16 12:28:18 2018 From: philip at turmel.org (Phil Turmel) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:28:18 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> Yes, it is the first level of certification for landscapers and gardeners. On 02/16/2018 12:24 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > What's a root password?? Is that like a certificate thingy? > > > On 02/16/2018 11:44 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: >> I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope the majority >> were aware of how to specify the program to run after kernel booting. >> I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that last guy didn't >> leave us.? From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 12:31:08 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:31:08 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> Message-ID: <5404E3C5-1BC0-4630-AD41-68F74A04500D@gmail.com> I thought that was network trunking... On February 16, 2018 12:28:18 PM EST, Phil Turmel via Ale wrote: >Yes, it is the first level of certification for landscapers and >gardeners. > >On 02/16/2018 12:24 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: >> What's a root password?? Is that like a certificate thingy? >> >> >> On 02/16/2018 11:44 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: >>> I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope the >majority >>> were aware of how to specify the program to run after kernel >booting. >>> I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that last guy didn't >>> leave us.? >_______________________________________________ >Ale mailing list >Ale at ale.org >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 12:31:10 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:31:10 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> Message-ID: Very low level. Mostly an underground topic. On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Phil Turmel via Ale wrote: > Yes, it is the first level of certification for landscapers and gardeners. > > On 02/16/2018 12:24 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: >> What's a root password? Is that like a certificate thingy? >> >> >> On 02/16/2018 11:44 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: >>> I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope the majority >>> were aware of how to specify the program to run after kernel booting. >>> I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that last guy didn't >>> leave us. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From philip at turmel.org Fri Feb 16 12:33:29 2018 From: philip at turmel.org (Phil Turmel) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:33:29 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <5404E3C5-1BC0-4630-AD41-68F74A04500D@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> <5404E3C5-1BC0-4630-AD41-68F74A04500D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ff2f2de-9612-cd05-33d2-add0d1fb5e83@turmel.org> No, trunking is the second level, and network trunking is the third level. The root is a prereq for the trunk. On 02/16/2018 12:31 PM, Jim Kinney wrote: > I thought that was network trunking... > > On February 16, 2018 12:28:18 PM EST, Phil Turmel via Ale > wrote: > > Yes, it is the first level of certification for landscapers and gardeners. > > On 02/16/2018 12:24 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > > What's a root password?? Is that like a certificate thingy? > > > On 02/16/2018 11:44 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: > > I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope the > majority > were aware of how to specify the program to run after kernel > booting. > I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that last > guy didn't > leave us.? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > -- > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related > and reflect authenticity. From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 12:34:20 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:34:20 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> Message-ID: <24381EAB-1282-4DC7-B6DC-7CB9E2CE54BF@gmail.com> I'm trying to dig up something on it but the root of the issue is when the trunk failed, they didn't leave anything behind. On February 16, 2018 12:31:10 PM EST, leam hall via Ale wrote: >Very low level. Mostly an underground topic. > >On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Phil Turmel via Ale >wrote: >> Yes, it is the first level of certification for landscapers and >gardeners. >> >> On 02/16/2018 12:24 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: >>> What's a root password? Is that like a certificate thingy? >>> >>> >>> On 02/16/2018 11:44 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: >>>> I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope the >majority >>>> were aware of how to specify the program to run after kernel >booting. >>>> I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that last guy >didn't >>>> leave us. >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >_______________________________________________ >Ale mailing list >Ale at ale.org >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Fri Feb 16 13:15:33 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:15:33 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <24381EAB-1282-4DC7-B6DC-7CB9E2CE54BF@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <07f8ae5a-d771-fac9-537d-7acb8b6773ec@turmel.org> <24381EAB-1282-4DC7-B6DC-7CB9E2CE54BF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4251fab2-3099-d488-85e7-6fc09c072b06@jdpfu.com> If you leave it alone long enough, it will rot out and the chipmunks will move into the tunnels where the trunks and roots used to be. I was surprised how quickly that rot happened. On 02/16/2018 12:34 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > I'm trying to dig up something on it but the root of the issue is when > the trunk failed, they didn't leave anything behind. > > On February 16, 2018 12:31:10 PM EST, leam hall via Ale wrote: > > Very low level. Mostly an underground topic. > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Phil Turmel via Ale wrote: > > Yes, it is the first level of certification for landscapers and > gardeners. > > On 02/16/2018 12:24 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > > What's a root password? Is that like a certificate thingy? > > > On 02/16/2018 11:44 AM, James Sumners via Ale wrote: > > I'm pretty sure this thread was a joke. I certainly hope > the majority > were aware of how to specify the program to run after > kernel booting. > I'm sure we've all had to reset a root password that > last guy didn't > leave us. > From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 13:52:02 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:52:02 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180216185202.GB31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:06:38PM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > If you need containers and micro-virtualization below the level of > "OS" then something like systemd could be useful. From a standpoint of > the many things that made Linux great, as a kernel and a concept, > systemd is not a good thing. Pray tell, what exactly is the "concept" of Linux? I can all but guarantee that no matter how you answer that, the overwhelming majority of the >2 billion Linux systems deployed don't conform to or otherwise embody any of it. (Nor, I might add, do they use systemd) And a follow-up question -- With your answer in mind, why did Linux succeed (or achieve "greatness") as opposed to, say, one or more of the BSDs? After all, the latter had a considerable head start, in both mindshare and technical capability. (I'm asking these questions as someone who is responsible for ~20K lines of code in the Linux kernel, has put together embedded distributions from scratch, and done Cloudy DevOps things a decade before those terms entered the lexicon.) - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slitt at troubleshooters.com Fri Feb 16 13:54:05 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:54:05 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180216135405.31151c0a@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500 Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." > > What does that even mean? It's pretty clear to me that his use of "Linux" was shorthand for GNU/Linux, which is a modern UNIX lookalike. The GNU part includes ls, tr, grep, cut, sort, and a whole bunch of other tools that "do one thing and do it well." The "do one thing and do it well" philosophy, when well implemented, has many positive outcomes: * Easy interchangeability of parts. * Easy troubleshooting without relying on special tools custom made for specific software. * Easy DIY. * More modularity, especially with respect to encapsulation. The preceding list describes pre-systemd Unix/Linux, with contained exceptions such as KDE, Kmail, Gnome, and Unity, which can simply be excised from Linux (I removed all KDE programs and libraries in 2013). Now of course, some folks claim that systemd has all those features because it's "made of separate modules". Yeah, but in practice, those modules are very hard to remove, and almost impossible to use, alone, on non-systemd systems. So I think Liam was saying people who reject systemd are people who like concepts such as "do one thing and do it well", with all its positive outcomes. SteveT From leamhall at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 14:09:16 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:09:16 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216135405.31151c0a@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216135405.31151c0a@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500 > Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: >> > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." >> >> What does that even mean? > > It's pretty clear to me that his use of "Linux" was shorthand for > GNU/Linux, which is a modern UNIX lookalike. The GNU part includes ls, > tr, grep, cut, sort, and a whole bunch of other tools that "do one > thing and do it well." > > The "do one thing and do it well" philosophy, when well implemented, has > many positive outcomes: > > * Easy interchangeability of parts. > * Easy troubleshooting without relying on special tools custom made for > specific software. > * Easy DIY. > * More modularity, especially with respect to encapsulation. > > The preceding list describes pre-systemd Unix/Linux, with contained > exceptions such as KDE, Kmail, Gnome, and Unity, which can simply be > excised from Linux (I removed all KDE programs and libraries in 2013). > > Now of course, some folks claim that systemd has all those features > because it's "made of separate modules". Yeah, but in practice, those > modules are very hard to remove, and almost impossible to use, alone, > on non-systemd systems. > > So I think Liam was saying people who reject systemd are people who > like concepts such as "do one thing and do it well", with all its > positive outcomes. > > SteveT Pretty sure I'm covered by "prior art" like "Linux World" conferences, "Linux Journal" magazine, and at least a few "Linux" books". While the GNU folks have my undying appreciation I find Richard Stallman's insistence on prepending "GNU/" in front of everything to be sad. It seems like someone doing a great job and then yelling at you about how great a job they did instead of letting you look and say "Wow, what a great job!" Leam From slitt at troubleshooters.com Fri Feb 16 14:12:33 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:12:33 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500 Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." > > What does that even mean? I already posited one theory on what Leam meant, and now a second possible explanation occurs to me: Systemd originator and evangelizer in chief Lennart Poettering has never been shy in stating his dislike of Linux, often going so far as to negatively compare Linux to Mac and even Windows. Yeah Windows. And it's clear that systemd makes Linux systems it has been installed on more like Windows, in terms of reduced diy, and increased program to program interdependencies. Poettering has several times suggested ignoring and breaking POSIX, an underpinning of all things UNIXy including Linux, for the last 30 years. Poettering doesn't like Linux and created systemd to make Linux less Linux. A person who likes Linux would therefore not like systemd. SteveT From leamhall at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 14:20:38 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:20:38 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:12 PM, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500 > Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: >> > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." >> >> What does that even mean? > > I already posited one theory on what Leam meant, and now a second > possible explanation occurs to me: > > Systemd originator and evangelizer in chief Lennart Poettering has > never been shy in stating his dislike of Linux, often going so far as > to negatively compare Linux to Mac and even Windows. Yeah Windows. And > it's clear that systemd makes Linux systems it has been installed on > more like Windows, in terms of reduced diy, and increased program to > program interdependencies. Poettering has several times suggested > ignoring and breaking POSIX, an underpinning of all things UNIXy > including Linux, for the last 30 years. > > Poettering doesn't like Linux and created systemd to make Linux less > Linux. A person who likes Linux would therefore not like systemd. > > SteveT That makes me wonder; what does systemd do that non-systemd mechanisms cannot? Granted, it may make some things easier or more to someone's liking, but what does it do well that cannot be replicated otherwise? Leam From JLightner at dsservices.com Fri Feb 16 14:28:43 2018 From: JLightner at dsservices.com (Lightner, Jeffrey) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 19:28:43 +0000 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: I ntractables N ever I ntend T ransistioning :p -----Original Message----- From: Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of leam hall via Ale Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 2:21 PM To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [ale] for all you systemd haters... On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:12 PM, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500 > Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: >> > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." >> >> What does that even mean? > > I already posited one theory on what Leam meant, and now a second > possible explanation occurs to me: > > Systemd originator and evangelizer in chief Lennart Poettering has > never been shy in stating his dislike of Linux, often going so far as > to negatively compare Linux to Mac and even Windows. Yeah Windows. And > it's clear that systemd makes Linux systems it has been installed on > more like Windows, in terms of reduced diy, and increased program to > program interdependencies. Poettering has several times suggested > ignoring and breaking POSIX, an underpinning of all things UNIXy > including Linux, for the last 30 years. > > Poettering doesn't like Linux and created systemd to make Linux less > Linux. A person who likes Linux would therefore not like systemd. > > SteveT That makes me wonder; what does systemd do that non-systemd mechanisms cannot? Granted, it may make some things easier or more to someone's liking, but what does it do well that cannot be replicated otherwise? Leam _______________________________________________ Ale mailing list Ale at ale.org http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 14:42:20 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:42:20 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216135405.31151c0a@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216135405.31151c0a@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180216194220.GC31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 01:54:05PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > It's pretty clear to me that his use of "Linux" was shorthand for > GNU/Linux, which is a modern UNIX lookalike. The GNU part includes ls, > tr, grep, cut, sort, and a whole bunch of other tools that "do one > thing and do it well." Since you brought up GNU.. GNU's Not UNIX, and their respective underlying philosophies are generally orthogonal. GNU isn't necessarily Linux, nor is Linux necessarily GNU either. > The "do one thing and do it well" philosophy, when well implemented, has > many positive outcomes: > > * Easy interchangeability of parts. ....For functionally equivalent pieces, or the whole system falls apart. > * Easy troubleshooting without relying on special tools custom made for > specific software. I already have an extensive toolbox of special tools optimized for different tasks. What's one more? (None of them are "custom made" either) > * Easy DIY. I don't recall if I asked this before (or how you answered), but have you ever built a Linux distribution from source? It's quite an undertaking, even today. > * More modularity, especially with respect to encapsulation. Generally a worthy goal, but all abstractions are ultimately leaky. > The preceding list describes pre-systemd Unix/Linux, with contained > exceptions such as KDE, Kmail, Gnome, and Unity, which can simply be > excised from Linux (I removed all KDE programs and libraries in 2013). I don't think it's fair to compare interactive GUI things with non-interative non-GUI things as they are designed for fundamentally different purposes. But putting that aside, you can replace parts of systemd, you can ascertain state/status and troubleshoot more easily than with the old mess (since there are fewer moving parts requiring fewer tools to muck with it all), it's easier to build a supportable distro using systemd than without it (due to having to reimplement far fewer wheels), and finally, systemd is modular to a fault, with all interactions between components explitly defined. > Now of course, some folks claim that systemd has all those features > because it's "made of separate modules". Yeah, but in practice, those > modules are very hard to remove, and almost impossible to use, alone, > on non-systemd systems. In practice, you can't go replacing bits of _any_ system willy-nilly without problems, because a system is more than the sum of its parts. (Case in point -- Just try and replace bash with csh, and see how much joy ensues as you end up needing to rewrite all but the most trivial of shell scripts. Including those invoked via init..) > So I think Liam was saying people who reject systemd are people who > like concepts such as "do one thing and do it well", with all its > positive outcomes. You may be correct, but I'd still prefer to hear his reasoning. IMO it's hard to argue that folks who have spent literally decades elbows-deep in Linux (both the kernel and various operating systems built on it) somehow don't "like" it. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 14:52:21 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:52:21 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216135405.31151c0a@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <1518810741.3771.14.camel@gmail.com> On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 14:09 -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > > Pretty sure I'm covered by "prior art" like "Linux World" > conferences, > "Linux Journal" magazine, and at least a few "Linux" books". While > the > GNU folks have my undying appreciation I find Richard Stallman's > insistence on prepending "GNU/" in front of everything to be sad. It > seems like someone doing a great job and then yelling at you about > how > great a job they did instead of letting you look and say "Wow, what a > great job!" Were it not for the work of GNU, there would be no Linux. Stallman has been rather clear in my recollection that a GNU/Linux name refers to the system as a whole. Linux refers to the kernel. Stallman may present himself as a crazy old coot, but he's "our crazy old coot". Compare him to Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Woz, Joy, etc. All the others had a huge impact on the business side of technology, i.e., they made a shit ton of money. Stallman changed the world in a tiny, subtle way that led to a paradigm shift of development that led to Linux that led to now. I think it should be proudly and loudly called GNU/Linux as long as he is alive and probably for years afterwards. I've fed my family thanks to what he started. > Leam > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 15:16:10 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:16:10 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:20:38PM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > That makes me wonder; what does systemd do that non-systemd mechanisms > cannot? Granted, it may make some things easier or more to someone's > liking, but what does it do well that cannot be replicated otherwise? Given that systemd uses public Linux (and/or glibc) APIs, there's nothing it does that another tool (or set of tools) couldn't also accomplish. An example of something that systemd does well is logind. Sure, you can recreate the external service API, but replicating the functionality "well" might be impossible without also replicating much of the systemd functionality that logind relies upon. Consequently, anything that seeks to replicate logind's underlying functionality (ie session management using Linux's cgroup features) is likely to end up looking subtantially similar to systemd's implementation. Are there other approaches to take? Sure, but someone who cares has to actually step up, make it work, and most importantly, keep supporting it. (That's why everyone was so happy to drop ConsoleKit like a hot potato) - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 15:23:53 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:23:53 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <1518810741.3771.14.camel@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216135405.31151c0a@mydesk.domain.cxm> <1518810741.3771.14.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180216202353.GE31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:52:21PM -0500, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > Were it not for the work of GNU, there would be no Linux. Stallman has > been rather clear in my recollection that a GNU/Linux name refers to > the system as a whole. Linux refers to the kernel. Yep. Without GNU (the project and the GPL) Linux as it exists today would have never come to pass. > I think it should be proudly and loudly called GNU/Linux as long as he > is alive and probably for years afterwards. I've fed my family thanks > to what he started. It's worth keeping in mind that these days only a minority of Linux deployments are GNU/Linux. Even excluding Android, consider how many appliances/boxes run Linux with uClibc and busybox, ie no GNU userspace at all. But yeah, I owe my professional career to what Stallman started. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 16 15:41:15 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:41:15 -0800 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> On 2018-02-16 12:16, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:20:38PM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: >> That makes me wonder; what does systemd do that non-systemd mechanisms >> cannot? Granted, it may make some things easier or more to someone's >> liking, but what does it do well that cannot be replicated otherwise? > > Given that systemd uses public Linux (and/or glibc) APIs, there's > nothing it does that another tool (or set of tools) couldn't also > accomplish. > > An example of something that systemd does well is logind. Sure, you can > recreate the external service API, but replicating the functionality > "well" might be impossible without also replicating much of the systemd > functionality that logind relies upon. Consequently, anything that > seeks to replicate logind's underlying functionality (ie session > management using Linux's cgroup features) is likely to end up looking > subtantially similar to systemd's implementation. > What exactly is logind supposed to handle? I've already searched multiple times and most sites regurgitate the manual without really discussing what it's supposed to be doing and how it's different or better than other implementations. I've not come across anything that explains it well. I ask in all seriousness because the few things I've been able to find are worded in ways suggesting that logind has abilities that have never existed before. For example, one site says that logind provides the ability to track user logins but that was already possible for both individual machines and for central authentication (Kerberos and more recently Active Directory). Again, in context (with paragraphs before and after) it extends the claim of an ability to "this has not been possible before" (paraphrased). From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 15:48:35 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:48:35 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:12:33PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > Systemd originator and evangelizer in chief Lennart Poettering has > never been shy in stating his dislike of Linux, often going so far as > to negatively compare Linux to Mac and even Windows. Yeah Windows. And > it's clear that systemd makes Linux systems it has been installed on > more like Windows, in terms of reduced diy, and increased program to > program interdependencies. (If you're referring to what I think you are..) Windows Vista introduced seamless shared audio output, capable of switching to different output devices, per-application volume control, even for applications written against the very first WaveOut audio APIs introduced in the Win16 days. It Just Worked(tm). So is it somehow bad to acknowledge that Windows or Macs genuinely did something better and provided a superior user experience, and attempt to address that deficiency in Linux systems? (With two major audio APIs, three or four incompatible sound servers, and a whole load of buggy-with-not-quite-the-same-quirks audio drivers to wrangle ) Another example. Is it somehow bad to acknowlede that Windows had objectively superior multi-desktop-users-logged-in-simultaneously support, and attempt to improve that? Meanwhile, I'd caution you against blaming Pottering for "increased program to program interdependencies" as that's a property of all systems and it well predates his birth. You might as well try to blame him for water being wet, for that would make as about much sense. > Poettering has several times suggested ignoring and breaking POSIX, an > underpinning of all things UNIXy including Linux, for the last 30 > years. POSIX and UNIX are not some holy documents beyond reproach, nor do they represent the absolute pinnacle of what can ever be achieved. They both have many warts, in design and implementation, and their abstrations break down all the damn time. Even the creators of both acknoweldge that. As an aside, Linus Torvalds often advocates for ignoring or otherwise breaking POSIX. Or are you seriously going to claim that Torvalds also doesn't know what underpins Linux? > Poettering doesn't like Linux and created systemd to make Linux less > Linux. A person who likes Linux would therefore not like systemd. By that same logic dropping a high output crate motor into my truck to make it more capable means that I don't like my truck, instead of showing that I like it more than is probably healthy. Yeah, Pottering hates Linux so much he's spent the past fifteen years improving it. We should all be so lucky to have folks like him that hate the things we use every day. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 16 16:00:05 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:00:05 -0800 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: On 2018-02-16 12:48, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 02:12:33PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: >> Systemd originator and evangelizer in chief Lennart Poettering has >> never been shy in stating his dislike of Linux, often going so far as >> to negatively compare Linux to Mac and even Windows. Yeah Windows. And >> it's clear that systemd makes Linux systems it has been installed on >> more like Windows, in terms of reduced diy, and increased program to >> program interdependencies. > > (If you're referring to what I think you are..) > > Windows Vista introduced seamless shared audio output, capable of > switching to different output devices, per-application volume control, > even for applications written against the very first WaveOut audio APIs > introduced in the Win16 days. It Just Worked(tm). > > So is it somehow bad to acknowledge that Windows or Macs genuinely did > something better and provided a superior user experience, and attempt to > address that deficiency in Linux systems? (With two major audio APIs, > three or four incompatible sound servers, and a whole load of > buggy-with-not-quite-the-same-quirks audio drivers to wrangle ) > > Another example. Is it somehow bad to acknowlede that Windows had > objectively superior multi-desktop-users-logged-in-simultaneously > support, and attempt to improve that? > > Meanwhile, I'd caution you against blaming Pottering for "increased > program to program interdependencies" as that's a property of all > systems and it well predates his birth. You might as well try to blame > him for water being wet, for that would make as about much sense. > >> Poettering has several times suggested ignoring and breaking POSIX, an >> underpinning of all things UNIXy including Linux, for the last 30 >> years. > > POSIX and UNIX are not some holy documents beyond reproach, nor do they > represent the absolute pinnacle of what can ever be achieved. > > They both have many warts, in design and implementation, and their > abstrations break down all the damn time. Even the creators of both > acknoweldge that. > > As an aside, Linus Torvalds often advocates for ignoring or otherwise > breaking POSIX. Or are you seriously going to claim that Torvalds also > doesn't know what underpins Linux? > >> Poettering doesn't like Linux and created systemd to make Linux less >> Linux. A person who likes Linux would therefore not like systemd. > > By that same logic dropping a high output crate motor into my truck to > make it more capable means that I don't like my truck, instead of > showing that I like it more than is probably healthy. > > Yeah, Pottering hates Linux so much he's spent the past fifteen years > improving it. We should all be so lucky to have folks like him that > hate the things we use every day. Just remember that Pottering was primarily responsible for Pulse Audio and, although perhaps it's working better now, he pushed it hard claiming it was ready and it was not leading to a severe hatred for it. He pushed hard enough that, in his very typical style, was calling out any distribution that did not install it by default. Later he backtracked saying he never claimed it was ready. I think if systemd had been spearheaded by anyone other than Pottering it probably would have gotten an improved reputation or at minimum would have had an opportunity to demonstrate itself and sell the idea on the merits. There are plenty of people that improve the things we use but are not even remotely as sour as Pottering. For systemd, Pottering's previous actions with Pulse Audio basically guaranteed that he burned the bridge before he crossed it. From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 16:07:42 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:07:42 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> Message-ID: <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:41:15PM -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > What exactly is logind supposed to handle? I've already searched > multiple times and most sites regurgitate the manual without really > discussing what it's supposed to be doing and how it's different or > better than other implementations. I've not come across anything that > explains it well. Logind manages user sessions. It ensues that when a user logs out all of their detritus is cleaned up properly, or that if you switch to a different user then appropriate permissions are set up and revoked -- this can even extends to stuff like network authentication, which may require per-user authentiction. It also (for all practical purposes) made multi-seat Linux systems feasible; that is a single box with different users simultaneously logged in using different sets of displays/keyboards/etc. Granted, other things like rootless X (via KMS) were also necessary, but logind tied it all together and finally made it work. > I ask in all seriousness because the few things I've been able to find > are worded in ways suggesting that logind has abilities that have never > existed before. For example, one site says that logind provides the > ability to track user logins but that was already possible for both > individual machines and for central authentication (Kerberos and more > recently Active Directory). Again, in context (with paragraphs before > and after) it extends the claim of an ability to "this has not been > possible before" (paraphrased). logind is not "tracking" logins so much as ensuring that everything a user gets up to is properly lumped in together so that when they log out you don't end up with stray processes or permissions out of whack. AD and Kerberos are both much lower-level mechanisms that are orthogonal to logind. Kerberos can easily be the authentication mechanism, while AD might only care that a given user is logged into on machine X for accounting purposes (eg there may be a security policy to prevent a user from being logged into more than one machine at a time. logind only knows or otherwise cares about the local system) - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 16:14:39 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:14:39 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: On 02/16/2018 04:07 PM, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > It also (for all practical purposes) made multi-seat Linux systems > feasible; that is a single box with different users simultaneously > logged in using different sets of displays/keyboards/etc. Granted, > other things like rootless X (via KMS) were also necessary, but logind > tied it all together and finally made it work. I'm confused on this, but it's likely just the pain from a recently pulled tooth. What is the use case for multiple physically logged in users? Didn't that already work? From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 16:15:02 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:15:02 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <1518815702.3771.26.camel@gmail.com> On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 13:00 -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > I think if systemd had been spearheaded by anyone other than > Pottering > it probably would have gotten an improved reputation or at minimum > would > have had an opportunity to demonstrate itself and sell the idea on > the > merits. There are plenty of people that improve the things we use > but > are not even remotely as sour as Pottering. For systemd, Pottering's > previous actions with Pulse Audio basically guaranteed that he burned > the bridge before he crossed it. > __________________________ And that sentiment is a real shame. I've managed to mellow (slightly) as I've become older. I don't instantly start waving the pitchfork and torch when things don't go my way. But I do keep them close :-) At the time, pulseaudio was a difficult project, a needed project as an attempt to create a Linux-wide workable audio system. Several people worked on it and made it happen. Far fewer people pitch pull requests that complain about things not being the way _they_ want it. I found the combo of pulsaudio and esd quite workable especially during the thin client project in 2006-2007. It just worked. Did it work 2 years earlier? Um, not well. Things improve. Sometimes people do to. > _____________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 16 16:23:30 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:23:30 -0800 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> On 2018-02-16 13:07, Solomon Peachy wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:41:15PM -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: >> What exactly is logind supposed to handle? I've already searched >> multiple times and most sites regurgitate the manual without really >> discussing what it's supposed to be doing and how it's different or >> better than other implementations. I've not come across anything that >> explains it well. > > Logind manages user sessions. It ensues that when a user logs out all of > their detritus is cleaned up properly, or that if you switch to a > different user then appropriate permissions are set up and revoked -- > this can even extends to stuff like network authentication, which may > require per-user authentiction. Now currently a non-systemd machine tracks what belongs to whom, right? I can pull up a list of PIDs and their owners (top already can do it) so in theory I should have always been able to clean up behind a user even if unceremoniously with a giant killall. So that part isn't new as described by some of these sites. Permissions for the network is interesting. Network authentication I can see since that currently would require some glue logic to pull off (like feeding current environment to wpasupplicant or an 802.1X EAP interface). > > It also (for all practical purposes) made multi-seat Linux systems > feasible; that is a single box with different users simultaneously > logged in using different sets of displays/keyboards/etc. Granted, > other things like rootless X (via KMS) were also necessary, but logind > tied it all together and finally made it work. But isn't this what thin-clients did ages ago? You had a keyboard, mouse, local GPU, local display manager and everything else ran on the central machine. Some older versions of Windows had that and I remember thin clients for using X as well. From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 16 16:27:23 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:27:23 -0800 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <1518815702.3771.26.camel@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> <1518815702.3771.26.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-02-16 13:15, Jim Kinney wrote: > On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 13:00 -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: >> I think if systemd had been spearheaded by anyone other than >> Pottering >> it probably would have gotten an improved reputation or at minimum >> would >> have had an opportunity to demonstrate itself and sell the idea on >> the >> merits. There are plenty of people that improve the things we use >> but >> are not even remotely as sour as Pottering. For systemd, Pottering's >> previous actions with Pulse Audio basically guaranteed that he burned >> the bridge before he crossed it. >> __________________________ > > And that sentiment is a real shame. I've managed to mellow (slightly) > as I've become older. I don't instantly start waving the pitchfork and > torch when things don't go my way. But I do keep them close :-) > At the time, pulseaudio was a difficult project, a needed project as an > attempt to create a Linux-wide workable audio system. Several people > worked on it and made it happen. Far fewer people pitch pull requests > that complain about things not being the way _they_ want it. I found > the combo of pulsaudio and esd quite workable especially during the > thin client project in 2006-2007. It just worked. Did it work 2 years > earlier? Um, not well. > Things improve. Sometimes people do to. Sometimes people improve but I think that Pottering has shown he won't (there's plenty of very recent messages from him where his overall tone suggest this). If you believe you have a great product, go out and sell the product. However, if you try to sell the product by yelling at potential clients that they're idiots if they don't buy it, your sales will not be as large as they would otherwise. Pottering may have a great product but he's an awful salesman (and not such a wonderful person). From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 16:29:30 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:29:30 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> Message-ID: <1518816570.3771.34.camel@gmail.com> On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 13:23 -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > > It also (for all practical purposes) made multi-seat Linux systems > > feasible; that is a single box with different users simultaneously > > logged in using different sets of > > displays/keyboards/etc. Granted, > > other things like rootless X (via KMS) were also necessary, but > > logind > > tied it all together and finally made it work. > > But isn't this what thin-clients did ages ago? You had a keyboard, > mouse, local GPU, local display manager and everything else ran on > the > central machine. Some older versions of Windows had that and I > remember > thin clients for using X as well. > Different stuff. It's literally a multi-port video card with a screen attached to display only one users' stuff. Picture a desktop with 6 users all with their own keyboard, display and mouse. Multi-console makes more sense. https://linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 16:31:42 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:31:42 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 01:00:05PM -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > Just remember that Pottering was primarily responsible for Pulse Audio > and, although perhaps it's working better now, he pushed it hard > claiming it was ready and it was not leading to a severe hatred for it. > He pushed hard enough that, in his very typical style, was calling out > any distribution that did not install it by default. Later he > backtracked saying he never claimed it was ready. That's fair to say. My personal experience with PA is that most of the end-user pain was due to Ubuntu utterly botching its integration and not really doing anything to improve things. (Fedora, despite using what essentially amounted to the same PA releases, suffered far fewer problems.) Well, that and buggy drivers, buggy applications [often relying on quirks of individual drivers], and bugs bugs bugs and even more bugs everywhere. Moral of the story: Linux Audio was a complete festering mess before PA came along, and becoming an even greater mess until everyone finally got serious about deploying bugfixes. I'm personally glad he pushed so hard, we all benefited in the end. (And amazed he keeps coming back for more. He must have skin made of asbestos..) (This situation paralleled NetworkManager and the multitude of wifi drivers that all behaved subtly or not so subtly differently...) > I think if systemd had been spearheaded by anyone other than Pottering > it probably would have gotten an improved reputation or at minimum would > have had an opportunity to demonstrate itself and sell the idea on the > merits. There are plenty of people that improve the things we use but > are not even remotely as sour as Pottering. For systemd, Pottering's > previous actions with Pulse Audio basically guaranteed that he burned > the bridge before he crossed it. A big difference is that systemd wasn't disruptive to the typical end-user, could be incrementally utilized, and didn't require folks to rewrite anything except muscle memory. (It's worth noting that systemd paying attention to return codes rapidly demonstrated a whole ton of bugs in supposedly-mature-and-robust distro init scripts. But guess who got blamed...) The average joe wouldn't have noticed any outward difference beyond faster boot times, distro writers and a decent chunk of their userbase went "hell yeah this is better", a smaller subset of their userbase still hasn't stopped screaming about ethics in init systems, and most users were like "meh, whatever.." Anyway. Simulations finally about to finish. I guess I'll have to go off and be productive now. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 16 16:33:02 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:33:02 -0800 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <1518816570.3771.34.camel@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> <1518816570.3771.34.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7017698e-23cb-95cf-ef83-a67b3945df43@acarver.net> On 2018-02-16 13:29, Jim Kinney wrote: > On Fri, 2018-02-16 at 13:23 -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: >>> It also (for all practical purposes) made multi-seat Linux systems >>> feasible; that is a single box with different users simultaneously >>> logged in using different sets of >>> displays/keyboards/etc. Granted, >>> other things like rootless X (via KMS) were also necessary, but >>> logind >>> tied it all together and finally made it work. >> >> But isn't this what thin-clients did ages ago? You had a keyboard, >> mouse, local GPU, local display manager and everything else ran on >> the >> central machine. Some older versions of Windows had that and I >> remember >> thin clients for using X as well. >> > Different stuff. It's literally a multi-port video card with a screen > attached to display only one users' stuff. Picture a desktop with 6 > users all with their own keyboard, display and mouse. Multi-console > makes more sense. How is that different from a thin client? I'm picturing what I saw before, a screen, a keyboard, a mouse and no real computer in sight. It didn't require that the computer be next to the keyboard/monitor nor that the four people were at the same desk but it still all ran from a single machine. The only real difference is that you've pushed the hardware deeper into the central machine's box. From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 16:37:45 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:37:45 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> References: <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> Message-ID: <20180216213745.GI31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 01:23:30PM -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > Now currently a non-systemd machine tracks what belongs to whom, right? > I can pull up a list of PIDs and their owners (top already can do it) so > in theory I should have always been able to clean up behind a user even > if unceremoniously with a giant killall. So that part isn't new as > described by some of these sites. Yes and no -- you don't want to blindly kill all of a user's processes. They may have more than one login session (eg via ssh), or may have requested something to persist. At the same time, you may want to reap stuff that has done the double-fork detachment game. It's not necessarily "new" in a pure capability sense, but what is new is that it JustWorks(tm). > Permissions for the network is interesting. Network authentication I > can see since that currently would require some glue logic to pull off > (like feeding current environment to wpasupplicant or an 802.1X EAP > interface). Yep, there's intereaction with NetworkManager (via dbus) to handle this sort of thing. > But isn't this what thin-clients did ages ago? You had a keyboard, > mouse, local GPU, local display manager and everything else ran on the > central machine. Some older versions of Windows had that and I remember > thin clients for using X as well. You've been around long enough to see what's old become new become old become new again. Meanwhile the old IBM greybeards are still chuckling about today's kids not knowing anything about anything. :) - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 16:43:29 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:43:29 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180216214329.GJ31918@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 04:14:39PM -0500, Leam Hall via Ale wrote: > I'm confused on this, but it's likely just the pain from a recently pulled > tooth. What is the use case for multiple physically logged in users? Didn't > that already work? Multiple simultaneous physical (graphical) sessions didn't really work, at least not without a lot of careful hand-configuration and even then the secrity between them was quite brittle due to requiring a lot of things to run as root. Two features in particluar made this work more recently -- proper cgroup support up and down the stack (eg systemd/logind in userspace, and more kernel subsystems implementing cgroups properly) and KMS allowing for the X server to not have to run as root. (Personally I think the whole idea is a bit daft, but evidently there are a lot who disagree with me...) - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 16:44:56 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:44:56 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <1518816570.3771.34.camel@gmail.com> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> <1518816570.3771.34.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 02/16/2018 04:29 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: > Different stuff. It's literally a multi-port video card with a screen > attached to display only one users' stuff. Picture a desktop with 6 > users all with their own keyboard, display and mouse. Multi-console > makes more sense. > > > https://linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html That version of Mandriva predates the distro adoption of systemd, doesn't it? From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 16 16:51:03 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:51:03 -0800 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <7455abbb-fcd7-f49d-7dbd-44fd297a70bf@acarver.net> On 2018-02-16 13:31, Solomon Peachy wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 01:00:05PM -0800, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: >> Just remember that Pottering was primarily responsible for Pulse Audio >> and, although perhaps it's working better now, he pushed it hard >> claiming it was ready and it was not leading to a severe hatred for it. >> He pushed hard enough that, in his very typical style, was calling out >> any distribution that did not install it by default. Later he >> backtracked saying he never claimed it was ready. > > That's fair to say. > > My personal experience with PA is that most of the end-user pain was due > to Ubuntu utterly botching its integration and not really doing anything > to improve things. (Fedora, despite using what essentially amounted to > the same PA releases, suffered far fewer problems.) > > Well, that and buggy drivers, buggy applications [often relying on > quirks of individual drivers], and bugs bugs bugs and even more bugs > everywhere. Moral of the story: Linux Audio was a complete festering > mess before PA came along, and becoming an even greater mess until > everyone finally got serious about deploying bugfixes. I'm personally > glad he pushed so hard, we all benefited in the end. (And amazed he > keeps coming back for more. He must have skin made of asbestos..) > > (This situation paralleled NetworkManager and the multitude of wifi > drivers that all behaved subtly or not so subtly differently...) I remember having to deal with Pulse Audio early on. ALSA happened to work better and I stuck with it. NetworkManager on the other hand tends to stick its nose into places that make things impossible. I think it's poorly implemented in some respects and am very glad it's not a mandatory component because I rip it out anytime I do a new installation. I know I mentioned the integration of EAP with the current session but I think the systemic annoyances that NM causes for some other cases outweighed it for me. >> I think if systemd had been spearheaded by anyone other than Pottering >> it probably would have gotten an improved reputation or at minimum would >> have had an opportunity to demonstrate itself and sell the idea on the >> merits. There are plenty of people that improve the things we use but >> are not even remotely as sour as Pottering. For systemd, Pottering's >> previous actions with Pulse Audio basically guaranteed that he burned >> the bridge before he crossed it. > > A big difference is that systemd wasn't disruptive to the typical > end-user, could be incrementally utilized, and didn't require folks to > rewrite anything except muscle memory. I think it depended on the location of that end-user. If it was the end-user is the administrator, it did have somewhat of a disruptive effect. This became especially obvious when certain things got jammed up due to systemd taking control of sockets for example (some applications are not expecting that an entirely different and unrelated piece of software is going to open and hold the socket). Some of the pain here is caused by package maintainers that blindly install every last bit of systemd configuration (sockets, etc.) without checking what the daemon actually expects or uses. But that ends up reflecting poorly on systemd because that was the "new thing" that appeared on the end-user's machine and suddenly broke whatever was working. And with something new like that, it's hard to get a grasp of all the details to unwind it. For one machine that I had to use systemd due to a dependency, it took me the better part of a day to figure out there was a socket defined that shouldn't have been there, find it and remove it. > > (It's worth noting that systemd paying attention to return codes rapidly > demonstrated a whole ton of bugs in supposedly-mature-and-robust > distro init scripts. But guess who got blamed...) > > The average joe wouldn't have noticed any outward difference beyond > faster boot times, distro writers and a decent chunk of their userbase > went "hell yeah this is better", a smaller subset of their userbase > still hasn't stopped screaming about ethics in init systems, and most > users were like "meh, whatever.." > > Anyway. Simulations finally about to finish. I guess I'll have to go > off and be productive now. > > - Solomon > From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 18:18:17 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:18:17 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216201610.GD31918@shaftnet.org> <24cf1795-3874-8c54-76c9-16ef8c4a2c98@acarver.net> <20180216210742.GG31918@shaftnet.org> <26b6a999-098c-30d8-68bb-5f93107c0c76@acarver.net> <1518816570.3771.34.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94F50654-D379-4F96-B3E3-7B3551F73990@gmail.com> Oh yeah. But that was just a fast example of the multi-seat linux that logind from systemd helps manage. It's still used in schools (not mandriva I hope!) On February 16, 2018 4:44:56 PM EST, Leam Hall via Ale wrote: >On 02/16/2018 04:29 PM, Jim Kinney via Ale wrote: >> Different stuff. It's literally a multi-port video card with a screen > >> attached to display only one users' stuff. Picture a desktop with 6 >> users all with their own keyboard, display and mouse. Multi-console >> makes more sense. >> >> >> https://linuxgazette.net/124/smith.html > >That version of Mandriva predates the distro adoption of systemd, >doesn't it? >_______________________________________________ >Ale mailing list >Ale at ale.org >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Fri Feb 16 19:00:16 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 19:00:16 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: On 02/16/2018 04:31 PM, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > The average joe wouldn't have noticed any outward difference beyond > faster boot times, Exactly when will that happen? My systems used to boot in 15-25 seconds, usually just under 20s. $ systemd-analyze Startup finished in 26.383s (kernel) + 13.483s (userspace) = 39.866s On systems with static IPs, networking.service takes over 20 seconds!!! Huh? I keep hearing systemd makes booting faster and I suppose it does for people with 150 LUNs, but not here. From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 16 19:12:26 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 16:12:26 -0800 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <8de7b4ef-a7ba-f4af-637d-25a53da9c8ab@acarver.net> On 2018-02-16 16:00, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > On 02/16/2018 04:31 PM, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: >> The average joe wouldn't have noticed any outward difference beyond >> faster boot times, > > Exactly when will that happen? > > My systems used to boot in 15-25 seconds, usually just under 20s. > > $ systemd-analyze > Startup finished in 26.383s (kernel) + 13.483s (userspace) = 39.866s > > On systems with static IPs, networking.service takes over 20 seconds!!! > Huh? > > I keep hearing systemd makes booting faster and I suppose it does for > people with 150 LUNs, but not here. I tried it out on one system. It gave me a login prompt fairly quickly (maybe five to ten seconds) but what I didn't know is that it was holding things off in the background. I expected to have all background services/daemons up and running by the time I was able to log in (i.e. presented with the login prompt) and that was not the case. A lot of the boot process was hidden away. I had no idea what was going on. Took me a while to figure out how to have all the boot messages show up on the screen again while the boot was in progress. From eff at dragoncon.org Fri Feb 16 23:29:29 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 23:29:29 -0500 Subject: [ale] GA SB 315 Senate Committee and Senate Floor Debate videos Message-ID: <44644282-2b69-9d8d-30d4-2bcd6af1984b@dragoncon.org> The following videos have been posted. Senate Public Safety Committee meeting hearing on SB 315 and committee vote. https://youtu.be/9Sh7Xr6StZE Senate debate and floor vote on SB 315 including failed amendment. Thanks to Senator Jennifer Jordan for attempting to limit the worst effects of the bill. https://youtu.be/7qk3MVKA3qI From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Feb 17 02:52:53 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:52:53 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180217025253.719dc901@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:20:38 -0500 leam hall via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:12 PM, Steve Litt via Ale > wrote: > > On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500 > > Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:22:20AM -0500, leam hall via Ale > >> wrote: > >> > I was thinking "People who actually like Linux." > >> > >> What does that even mean? > > > > I already posited one theory on what Leam meant, and now a second > > possible explanation occurs to me: > > > > Systemd originator and evangelizer in chief Lennart Poettering has > > never been shy in stating his dislike of Linux, often going so far > > as to negatively compare Linux to Mac and even Windows. Yeah > > Windows. And it's clear that systemd makes Linux systems it has > > been installed on more like Windows, in terms of reduced diy, and > > increased program to program interdependencies. Poettering has > > several times suggested ignoring and breaking POSIX, an > > underpinning of all things UNIXy including Linux, for the last 30 > > years. > > > > Poettering doesn't like Linux and created systemd to make Linux less > > Linux. A person who likes Linux would therefore not like systemd. > > > > SteveT > > That makes me wonder; what does systemd do that non-systemd mechanisms > cannot? > Granted, it may make some things easier or more to someone's > liking, but what does it do well that cannot be replicated otherwise? Hi Liam, It looks like you're asking 2 questions: 1) What does systemd do that other mechanisms can't do? 2) Can these benefits be replicated by other systems? As far as your question 1, it depends who you ask. Here's the systemd party line: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html The preceding is so chock full of logical fallacies, but not a day goes by when I don't hear someone with absolutely no idea of the functionality of an init system parroting its fallacies. Here's the rebuttal to same, by Jude Nelson, author of the vdev replacement for systemd-entangled udev: http://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html And here's why musl C standard library author Rich Felker says systemd is "broken by design." Be sure to go to the bottom and see the 14 line PID1 written by Felker. Later, Dimitris Papastamos made an 83 line version, Suckless Tools Init (sinit), that responded to all the necessary interrupts for a PID1. Then I bolted on daemontools-encore, and some custom shellscripts I called LittKit to bring up services in a given order. The sinit/daemontools-encore/LittKit combo was better, faster and more understandable than sysvinit, and it was better and more understandable than systemd (systemd *does* boot pretty fast, if that's your priority and you're a one issue voter). I'd still be using the combo today, but I found out that the runit init system is pretty much the same thing, from a single free software vendor, with a lot of improvements bestowed not by dependencies or kilolines of code, but by a few symlinks and a few lightweight utilities. So, both sinit+Daemontools-encore+LittKit and runit do the init work of systemd, in a different way, much more simply. Another init system does it in a slightly more complex and featureful way than runit and my combo, but it's as good or superior to the init section of systemd, and much simpler. These have to do with your question #2. LOL, here's the systemd sales process, as shown time and time again by Poettering: 1 Find or invent a need. 2 Write a messy, entangled solution with a design you might expect from a group of DP101 students. This solution is inseparably interwoven with systemd. 3 When people say it's a mess, he says "well, how else are you going to do ________?" 4 When people voice realistic ideas, he proves they won't work by showing how they conflict with the existing Rube Goldberg systemd he's already built. He does this by getting into nitty gritty details of his code that nobody outside the systemd/freedesktop developer community could possibly understand. 5 Finally, after somebody shows a working example of how to do ______ that involves no help from systemd, Poettering writes it off as "simple", the worst insult he knows. Steps 4 and 5 are Poettering's answer to your question: They say you can't. And if you *do* make a superior mechanism, they'll say it doesn't count because it's "simple." Throughout all those steps he Poettering (and systemd fans who use his techniques) sprinkle in all sorts of personal insults. Here's a video showing Poettering, using the steps above, ambushing and bullying a presenter who had little skill in English. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTdUmlGxVo0 At 23:02 Poettering asks the presenter "do you hate handicapped people" because the presenter didn't want the display manager to be a preload of Gnome. He's fully in step 4 here, explaining why with his software, you need all that trash to be accessible. At 23:53 Poettering appears to score some major points when he defends NetworkManager as part of the Display manager and the presenter unwisely suggests static configuration. But of course, a very simple program with a limited X interface can manipulate wpa_cli and wpa_password within a shellscript to provide that function: You don't need NetworkManager, which is extremely promiscuous with its communications with other programs. Poettering's kicking ass on step 4. And then at 24:51 the presenter makes Poettering look silly with the sentence "do you know what shellscripts are?", thereby kicking it up to step 5. Poettering mutters an insult and changes the subject. Many projects are led by dicks. If I refused to use software led by dicks, I'd still be using CPM. Thing is though, the systemd posse parrots the words of Poettering as if it's gospel instead of a combination of insults and fallacies. True story: A pro-systemd guy assured me I needed "socket activation" to read and automount thumb drives. After two hours experimentation I presented a shellscript automounter based on inotifywait. Pro-systemd guy didn't like it, too simple, didn't work with systemd (that was the whole point), and too buggy (did I mention I wrote it in 2 hours?). I have yet to hear of anything systemd does that could not be done in a more modular, simpler and easy to troubleshoot way. SteveT From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Feb 17 03:16:11 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 03:16:11 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <1515708704.3223.42.camel@gmail.com> <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180217031611.11b12584@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 19:00:16 -0500 DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > On 02/16/2018 04:31 PM, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > > The average joe wouldn't have noticed any outward difference beyond > > faster boot times, > > Exactly when will that happen? > > My systems used to boot in 15-25 seconds, usually just under 20s. > > $ systemd-analyze > Startup finished in 26.383s (kernel) + 13.483s (userspace) = 39.866s > > On systems with static IPs, networking.service takes over 20 > seconds!!! Huh? > > I keep hearing systemd makes booting faster and I suppose it does for > people with 150 LUNs, but not here. I personally made a 2 second boot systemd system while writing my Manjaro Experiments http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm The best I ever did with runit was about 6 to 8 seconds. However, from what I read on mailing lists, real systemd systems that do real things take between 30 seconds and a minute: Similarly practical runit systems take roughly the same amount of time. I haven't used sysvinit for years, but as I remember it might have taken even longer than systemd and runit when used on a practical system. On any of these systems, if you're very knowledgeable about your init, you can substantially speed up the boot by parallelizing and/or timing stuff, and by making sure something like broken reverse dns doesn't give you timeouts. SteveT From pizza at shaftnet.org Fri Feb 16 21:04:27 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:04:27 -0500 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: References: <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180217020427.GC31054@shaftnet.org> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 07:00:16PM -0500, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > Exactly when will that happen? > > My systems used to boot in 15-25 seconds, usually just under 20s. > > $ systemd-analyze > Startup finished in 26.383s (kernel) + 13.483s (userspace) = 39.866s If the kernel itself is taking more time to boot than the entire system used to in the past, it seems silly to blame systemd for that. (And wtf is going on to make the kernel take 26s to hand off to userspace?) Anectdotally, Fedora 24 on a high-end P700 workstation I have at the office booted noticably faster from spinning rust than CentOS6 did from an SSD in the same system, despite having more to start up. > On systems with static IPs, networking.service takes over 20 seconds!!! > Huh? You can drill down deeper into that to see where the time is actually spent. network.target on my main server took 22 seconds to start on its last boot. It's also a fully static setup, but that time includes *every* network-facing service. Mailman accounted for a ludicrous 10s of that. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 08:58:22 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 08:58:22 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed Message-ID: Possibly separating this discussion out into component parts. We'll see how it goes. I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a lot faster. If you're booting your desktop then you're probably already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an issue. For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. From adrya.stembridge at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 09:01:04 2018 From: adrya.stembridge at gmail.com (Adrya Stembridge) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 09:01:04 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How is everyone maintaining uptime while keeping current on kernel security patches for your given distro? On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 8:58 AM, leam hall via Ale wrote: > Possibly separating this discussion out into component parts. We'll > see how it goes. > > I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a > lot faster. If you're booting your desktop then you're probably > already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some > coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an > issue. > > For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? > Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From damon at damtek.com Sat Feb 17 09:23:52 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 09:23:52 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a professional, I am not.? Like the man said, if you need uptime, you designed it wrong.? As a "hobbyist", "enthusiast", or just plain user, I also don't care about uptime.? go ahead. Reboot your home box.? Even shut it down when you are not using it and save a few hundred dollars a year. On 02/17/2018 09:01 AM, Adrya Stembridge via Ale wrote: > How is everyone maintaining uptime while keeping current on kernel > security patches for your given distro? > > On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 8:58 AM, leam hall via Ale > wrote: > > Possibly separating this discussion out into component parts. We'll > see how it goes. > > I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a > lot faster. If you're booting your desktop then you're probably > already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some > coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an > issue. > > For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? > Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 10:32:14 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 10:32:14 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35093F9D-CB7F-402B-87BD-CC13CEF84F5F@gmail.com> Add in virtual machines deployed by the millions and there's a huge need for rapid reboot. On February 17, 2018 9:01:04 AM EST, Adrya Stembridge via Ale wrote: >How is everyone maintaining uptime while keeping current on kernel >security >patches for your given distro? > >On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 8:58 AM, leam hall via Ale wrote: > >> Possibly separating this discussion out into component parts. We'll >> see how it goes. >> >> I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a >> lot faster. If you're booting your desktop then you're probably >> already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some >> coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an >> issue. >> >> For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? >> Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. >> _______________________________________________ >> Ale mailing list >> Ale at ale.org >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo >> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 10:41:37 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 10:41:37 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: <35093F9D-CB7F-402B-87BD-CC13CEF84F5F@gmail.com> References: <35093F9D-CB7F-402B-87BD-CC13CEF84F5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 10:32 AM, Jim Kinney wrote: > Add in virtual machines deployed by the millions and there's a huge need for > rapid reboot. If you have a few million machines then redundancy better be high. From jonathan.l.meek at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 12:05:57 2018 From: jonathan.l.meek at gmail.com (Jonathan Meek) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 17:05:57 +0000 Subject: [ale] for all you systemd haters... In-Reply-To: <20180217020427.GC31054@shaftnet.org> References: <8EEDDAC6-73E4-4522-A124-6ABA8273DFC6@gmail.com> <20180216112005.4db8ca7e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216165203.GA31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216141233.4d948f3e@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180216204835.GF31918@shaftnet.org> <20180216213142.GH31918@shaftnet.org> <20180217020427.GC31054@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: I am just going wander over here and drink my coffee because I match the case that someone pointed out in the email chain about a user. As a user, I have rarely messed around with checking into what's running in the init scripts. One failed systemd unit script kept me from messing with it again. I am pretty that was me not understanding what in the wide world of sports was going on there. The biggest issue I have seen with systemd has been its logging into binary instead of text. It makes me a little nervous because most Linux distros has some program to view text in the command line (vi, emacs, nano, cat) while viewing the binaries could be a tricky affair. Just my thoughts on the matter at hand. Back to my Puerto Rican coffee sipping. Jonathan On Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 7:16 AM Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 07:00:16PM -0500, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > > Exactly when will that happen? > > > > My systems used to boot in 15-25 seconds, usually just under 20s. > > > > $ systemd-analyze > > Startup finished in 26.383s (kernel) + 13.483s (userspace) = 39.866s > > If the kernel itself is taking more time to boot than the entire system > used to in the past, it seems silly to blame systemd for that. > > (And wtf is going on to make the kernel take 26s to hand off to userspace?) > > Anectdotally, Fedora 24 on a high-end P700 workstation I have at the > office booted noticably faster from spinning rust than CentOS6 did from > an SSD in the same system, despite having more to start up. > > > On systems with static IPs, networking.service takes over 20 seconds!!! > > Huh? > > You can drill down deeper into that to see where the time is actually > spent. > > network.target on my main server took 22 seconds to start on its last > boot. It's also a fully static setup, but that time includes *every* > network-facing service. Mailman accounted for a ludicrous 10s of that. > > - Solomon > -- > Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org > Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ > Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com Sat Feb 17 13:42:58 2018 From: James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com (James Taylor) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:42:58 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me Message-ID: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> I'm a huge fan of linux. Like many, if not all of the people on this list, I depend on it to put food on the table. My first *nix system was an SCO 286 box that I ran serial terminals and UUCP access for mail and newgroups. I've supported, to some extent, various flavors of unix from IBM, Sun, HP and even Wang Labs. I've used linux as my exclusive desktop since 2001. In all that time, the only constant has been change. I've been running systems with sysvinit from that original SCO system until very recently, so I have become very used to it. That said, I'm not going to build my own distribution and support it. I depend on major distros, commercial and free, to support my customers, and they don't want to have to think about anything except how their systems generate revenue or otherwise support their organizations' goals. I use my computers to provide that support, in addition to my own meager development efforts to support the integrations I do to meet their needs. systemd was a major pita, partly because all of the vendors that I use to support my customers went for it wholesale. So I have the choice of creating a ridiculous amount of ongoing effort to do something different, or learn how to deal with systemd. Ultimately, it works, and doesn't interfere with anything I need to do. The learning curve is not different than any other one related to having to move off of a deprecated utility. There are things I like and don't like about it, but it doesn't really change the character of linux enough to make me look elsewhere, so I do what I've always done, adapt and move on. -jt James Taylor 678-697-9420 james.taylor at eastcobbgroup.com From damon at damtek.com Sat Feb 17 15:34:01 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:34:01 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: EXACTLY how I think and how I feel.? I don't get The Great Controversy. If you use it professionally, there is no choice.? If you use it privately or you support your customers yourself, you have to do a lot of work if you don't use systemd.? But, who cares if you want to do all that work, go for it?? But, and, leave me alone to use major vendors and support commercial institutions in their day to day quest for market share. I could roll my own for home use, but, I just don't care enough, If you do, please roll your own and stop telling me how worthless the OS I use everyday is.? by the very feat that I use it everyday (Red hat, Debian, Fedora, Ubuntu and Arch) says it is NOT worthless and A Living Hell.? I just learn what I need to learn, apply that knowledge, and move on with what REALLY matters (making money to feed my family, spending time with the same, and sometimes killing on screen video bad guys (in Linux, no less)). The Market has spoken.? Perhaps it was a rigged game with a rigged vote?? Eh.? roll you own.? If this sounds harsh, it is not meant to be.? Just factual on what My View is.? I just don't get it.? The emotional turmoil.? Really?? People are dying the world over for a variety of reasons.? No matter what side of an issue you take, there is mass injustice and people are up in arms YEARS after an init system is replaced?? OK.? Put it into perspective. On 02/17/2018 01:42 PM, James Taylor via Ale wrote: > I'm a huge fan of linux. Like many, if not all of the people on this list, I depend on it to put food on the table. > My first *nix system was an SCO 286 box that I ran serial terminals and UUCP access for mail and newgroups. > I've supported, to some extent, various flavors of unix from IBM, Sun, HP and even Wang Labs. > I've used linux as my exclusive desktop since 2001. > In all that time, the only constant has been change. > I've been running systems with sysvinit from that original SCO system until very recently, so I have become very used to it. > That said, I'm not going to build my own distribution and support it. > I depend on major distros, commercial and free, to support my customers, and they don't want to have to think about anything except how their systems generate revenue or otherwise support their organizations' goals. > I use my computers to provide that support, in addition to my own meager development efforts to support the integrations I do to meet their needs. > systemd was a major pita, partly because all of the vendors that I use to support my customers went for it wholesale. So I have the choice of creating a ridiculous amount of ongoing effort to do something different, or learn how to deal with systemd. > Ultimately, it works, and doesn't interfere with anything I need to do. > The learning curve is not different than any other one related to having to move off of a deprecated utility. > There are things I like and don't like about it, but it doesn't really change the character of linux enough to make me look elsewhere, so I do what I've always done, adapt and move on. > -jt > > > > > James Taylor > 678-697-9420 > james.taylor at eastcobbgroup.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From leamhall at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 16:17:34 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:17:34 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > The Market has spoken. If the status quo were sufficient and the market voice enough then Linux would not exist. No need for it. That's perspective. You're right, compared to the ills of the world a Linux init system isn't a big deal. That's why I moderate my tone and express my opinions tactfully. Having the option if systemd, or not, would have been a better course of action for me. Having to move from sysvinit to systemd is something I don't have to do right now. That gives me a little time to look at my career and think about where I want to grow into. I feel systemd is bad enough that what RHEL 7 is seems to not be Linux. If I'm not doing Linux then a lot of things open up. Leam From damon at damtek.com Sat Feb 17 16:25:11 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:25:11 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: <71a0a548-7202-e651-a615-323eda722c6c@damtek.com> I find that opinion interesting.? I do Linux because I find the way it work is like how I think.? I get paid to do it, and by some freak of nature, I am pretty good at it and make a very good living doing it.? When it comes to making a living, do what ever pays :)? Feeding yourself and family is not a Holy Cause.? It is what men the world over get out of bed to do every day and most of them never heard of Linux. On 02/17/2018 04:17 PM, leam hall via Ale wrote: > On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: >> The Market has spoken. > If the status quo were sufficient and the market voice enough then > Linux would not exist. No need for it. That's perspective. > > You're right, compared to the ills of the world a Linux init system > isn't a big deal. That's why I moderate my tone and express my > opinions tactfully. > > Having the option if systemd, or not, would have been a better course > of action for me. Having to move from sysvinit to systemd is something > I don't have to do right now. That gives me a little time to look at > my career and think about where I want to grow into. I feel systemd is > bad enough that what RHEL 7 is seems to not be Linux. If I'm not doing > Linux then a lot of things open up. > > Leam > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From leamhall at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 16:48:35 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:48:35 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <71a0a548-7202-e651-a615-323eda722c6c@damtek.com> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <71a0a548-7202-e651-a615-323eda722c6c@damtek.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > I find that opinion interesting. I do Linux because I find the way it work > is like how I think. I get paid to do it, and by some freak of nature, I am > pretty good at it and make a very good living doing it. When it comes to > making a living, do what ever pays :) Feeding yourself and family is not a > Holy Cause. It is what men the world over get out of bed to do every day > and most of them never heard of Linux. Over the course of my career I've seen people who supported a variety of Unix-ish operating systems. The difference between someone who does "ThisOS" only at work and a person who does it at work and at home can be significant. If the OS is becoming a large application where the company has to wait days for tech support or pay for professional services to make major changes then it seems more like Windows, Oracle, or some large "thing". That's not a bad career choice, but it isn't within my perception of Linux. I write this at home on a CentOS 6 box using Firefox and GMail. When things break I can cat the logs and vi the config files if I need to. I don't that RHEL will stick with systemd, they didn't stick with upstart. Since they may still employ LP they may go with systemd. Of course, from my perspective they are going to containerization as a primary market and leaving the server OS as a secondary product. It probably makes a lot of business sense. >From a career perspective I need to work until I die. No real savings or inheritance. I want that work to be fun and challenging. I don't want to retire anyway, it seems boring. So I need to pick my topics for the next ~20 years. Maybe there's a container system that doesn't use systemd. On containers, that may be a decent use case for systemd. I don't know though. I did ask what systemd could do that couldn't be done by other init systems. So far I haven't seen any responses to that. Hope that makes sense. Leam From James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com Sat Feb 17 17:31:47 2018 From: James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com (James Taylor) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 17:31:47 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <71a0a548-7202-e651-a615-323eda722c6c@damtek.com> Message-ID: <5A88AD5302000075000378E6@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> FWIW - On my distro I can still install syslog-ng and disable the journald stuff. I'll have to figure it out eventually, but not yet. -jt >>> leam hall via Ale 2/17/2018 4:48 PM >>> I write this at home on a CentOS 6 box using Firefox and GMail. When things break I can cat the logs and vi the config files if I need to. From damon at damtek.com Sat Feb 17 19:49:00 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 19:49:00 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <71a0a548-7202-e651-a615-323eda722c6c@damtek.com> Message-ID: Makes perfect sense to me.? And to answer your question, nothing.? Systemd does nothing that can't be done by something else.? I am actually not a fan, but I can't hardly care enough to replace it.? There is a HUGE difference between technical people who do it for work and people who do it for work AND play, and it does not really matter what OS your technology you may be talking about. You can spot it a mile away at work. On 02/17/2018 04:48 PM, leam hall via Ale wrote: > On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: >> I find that opinion interesting. I do Linux because I find the way it work >> is like how I think. I get paid to do it, and by some freak of nature, I am >> pretty good at it and make a very good living doing it. When it comes to >> making a living, do what ever pays :) Feeding yourself and family is not a >> Holy Cause. It is what men the world over get out of bed to do every day >> and most of them never heard of Linux. > Over the course of my career I've seen people who supported a variety > of Unix-ish operating systems. The difference between someone who does > "ThisOS" only at work and a person who does it at work and at home can > be significant. If the OS is becoming a large application where the > company has to wait days for tech support or pay for professional > services to make major changes then it seems more like Windows, > Oracle, or some large "thing". That's not a bad career choice, but it > isn't within my perception of Linux. > > I write this at home on a CentOS 6 box using Firefox and GMail. When > things break I can cat the logs and vi the config files if I need to. > I don't that RHEL will stick with systemd, they didn't stick with > upstart. Since they may still employ LP they may go with systemd. Of > course, from my perspective they are going to containerization as a > primary market and leaving the server OS as a secondary product. It > probably makes a lot of business sense. > > From a career perspective I need to work until I die. No real savings > or inheritance. I want that work to be fun and challenging. I don't > want to retire anyway, it seems boring. So I need to pick my topics > for the next ~20 years. Maybe there's a container system that doesn't > use systemd. > > On containers, that may be a decent use case for systemd. I don't know > though. I did ask what systemd could do that couldn't be done by other > init systems. So far I haven't seen any responses to that. > > Hope that makes sense. > > Leam > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Feb 17 19:56:15 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 19:56:15 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180217195615.18fb5025@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 08:58:22 -0500 leam hall via Ale wrote: > Possibly separating this discussion out into component parts. We'll > see how it goes. > > I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a > lot faster. If your computer is an entertainment appliance receiving live broadcasts, a 2 second boot is better than a minute boot. If you're spinning up hundreds of VMs or containers, the boot time of those matters. If your boot takes 10 minutes, that's unacceptable. Otherwise... > If you're booting your desktop then you're probably > already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some > coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an > issue. Zactly! > > For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? > Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. In addition, just because Steve Litt once experimentally got systemd to boot in 2 seconds doesn't mean that's the normal state of affairs. Reports I hear on various mailing lists have healthy systemd systems booting in about 20 seconds, and unhealthy ones taking two minutes. But back to your initial question about boot speed being a game change: Boot speed being a game changer is an existential necessity to the systemd cabal because systemd's raison d'?tre is efficiency, and once the computer is stably up, the init system has little to no effect on efficiency. The systemd cabal is forced to wow and praise over the boot speed, all the while saying "and many other things too", because, of course, you're right: Few care whether boot takes 30 seconds or a minute, and all too often it's the runit system that takes 30 seconds. SteveT Steve Litt January 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother? http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Feb 17 20:02:20 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:02:20 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: <20180217200220.44455cd5@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:42:58 -0500 James Taylor via Ale wrote an email with this subject. Steve Litt replies: The very subject of this thread is a false dilemma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). And it's a false dilemma the systemd cabal employs endlessly, so as not to compete with modern simple and efficient inits like runit and s6, or, if you like a 100% single file startup, Epoch. SteveT From damon at damtek.com Sat Feb 17 20:12:44 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:12:44 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <20180217200220.44455cd5@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217200220.44455cd5@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: I hate to nit pick (I really do) but your statement is actually a false dilemma.? The OP stated "why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me", not "systemd vs sysvinit".? The OP says he can't find the time, he just wants to use the OS.? The OP never said "this or that". I am with him.? I just don't care.? That is an opinion, not a dilemma.? I also don't like watermelon.? Nothing to argue about here.? If you like watermelon, eat it.? If you want init $FOO use it.? I just don't want it (particularly, I mean, you need some sort of init) or really even care about it (which init is used), as long as I can us the Linux (GNU or otherwise) when it it booted. On 02/17/2018 08:02 PM, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 13:42:58 -0500 > James Taylor via Ale wrote an email with this subject. > > Steve Litt replies: > > The very subject of this thread is a false dilemma > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma). > > And it's a false dilemma the systemd cabal employs endlessly, so as not > to compete with modern simple and efficient inits like runit and s6, > or, if you like a 100% single file startup, Epoch. > > > SteveT > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From damon at damtek.com Sat Feb 17 20:16:36 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:16:36 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: <20180217195615.18fb5025@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20180217195615.18fb5025@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: Least you think I am on the systemd side:? I agree with what you wrote.? My Arch system takes for ever (subjectively) to boot, maby 20 to 30 sec AFTER I give the encrypted password, then I have to wait what feels like an eternity to get my NIC to find an IP and initialize (wither or not static or DHCP is used).? I am soooooo glad systemd fixed that boot speed issue.? OTHO, eh.? Not really that big of a deal for me to dig into it and fix it. On 02/17/2018 07:56 PM, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 08:58:22 -0500 > leam hall via Ale wrote: > >> Possibly separating this discussion out into component parts. We'll >> see how it goes. >> >> I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a >> lot faster. > If your computer is an entertainment appliance receiving live > broadcasts, a 2 second boot is better than a minute boot. If you're > spinning up hundreds of VMs or containers, the boot time of those > matters. If your boot takes 10 minutes, that's unacceptable. > Otherwise... > >> If you're booting your desktop then you're probably >> already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some >> coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an >> issue. > Zactly! > >> For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? >> Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. > In addition, just because Steve Litt once experimentally got systemd > to boot in 2 seconds doesn't mean that's the normal state of affairs. > Reports I hear on various mailing lists have healthy systemd systems > booting in about 20 seconds, and unhealthy ones taking two minutes. > > But back to your initial question about boot speed being a game change: > Boot speed being a game changer is an existential necessity to the > systemd cabal because systemd's raison d'?tre is efficiency, and once > the computer is stably up, the init system has little to no effect on > efficiency. The systemd cabal is forced to wow and praise over the boot > speed, all the while saying "and many other things too", because, of > course, you're right: Few care whether boot takes 30 seconds or a > minute, and all too often it's the runit system that takes 30 seconds. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > January 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother? > http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Feb 17 20:29:13 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:29:13 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: <20180217202913.1e524fd8@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:34:01 -0500 "Damon L. Chesser via Ale" wrote: > The Market has spoken.? I'd label the preceding as a premature declaration of victory. I'll bet you Red Hat is shocked at the number and mindshare of holdout distros, especially since a lot of them are using inits other than sysvinit, so in many dimensions they are demonstrably better than systemd. > Perhaps it was a rigged game with a rigged > vote?? Eh.? roll you own.? What the hell do you think millions of us are doing? Projects have sanitized Arch and Manjaro. The systemd-free Devuan project is being used in shops all over the place. Former Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat, Fedora and OpenSuSe users populate the worlds of Void Linux, Devuan, and *BSD, bringing with their knowledge and common sense. > If this sounds harsh, it is not meant to > be. It's just the Libertarian in you. Well, we're all Libertarian, and plenty of us voted by switching distros. Although systemd commands the major mindshare in big-iron corporations, plenty of businesses and individuals use its alternatives and like it that way. > Just factual on what My View is.? I just don't get it.? OK, listen to what the systemd-free folks are really saying. > The > emotional turmoil.? Really?? A piece of with-us-or-agin-us software on 70% of Linux boxes make it inconvenient for us. Yeah, *we* don't use it, but there's always some fool who thinks it's cool and new to gratuitously dependency a piece of formerly init-independent software to systemd. It's a hassle. Think of how you feel when people send you MS Office documents with MS Office proprietary features. You get mad. > People are dying the world over for a > variety of reasons.? That's over the top. If discourse didn't start til people died, this would be a horrible world. The preceding sentence is a no-op. > No matter what side of an issue you take, there > is mass injustice Ditto. > people are up in arms YEARS after an init > system is replaced?? OK.? Put it into perspective. Yes, YEARS. Put that into perspective. I don't remember any other free software that this happened with. You might want to really listen to folks who don't use systemd and work to keep it that way. And please, if you want to answer points I've made, please interleave post so we all know the context to which you're replying. SteveT From leamhall at gmail.com Sat Feb 17 20:40:56 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:40:56 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: <20180217195615.18fb5025@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > Least you think I am on the systemd side: I agree with what you wrote. My > Arch system takes for ever (subjectively) to boot, maby 20 to 30 sec AFTER I > give the encrypted password, then I have to wait what feels like an eternity > to get my NIC to find an IP and initialize (wither or not static or DHCP is > used). I am soooooo glad systemd fixed that boot speed issue. OTHO, eh. > Not really that big of a deal for me to dig into it and fix it. Hey Damon. I probably thought that at first, but your point about paying the bills is valid. If worked switched to a systemd based OS next week I'd switch and suck it up. And mumble a bit. I've been wanting to move out of straight Linux admin for a while. Mostly because mgmt tends to view us as commodities where the developers are semi-divine and always right. (HA!) It seems like RHEL is going the way of VMWare and the F5 BigIP; lots of stuff to prevent the engineer from getting into the system and fixing things. Both VMWare and the BigIP were on RHEL last time I looked, way under the hood. There was no expectation that you could get there though. In one terminal window I've done a git push of some sci-fi I'm writing. In another I'm working on Ruby code to better collate book chapters. I have a small whiteboard with an idea for a space merchant text based game sketched out, at least at the first blush level. I used to come home and play with sendmail attempts or apache configs. So far I'm not seeing a lot of "whoo-hoo" when I think about learning systemd. From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sat Feb 17 21:22:42 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:22:42 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: <20180217195615.18fb5025@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180217212242.1232d696@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:40:56 -0500 leam hall via Ale wrote: > On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 8:16 PM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale > wrote: > > Least you think I am on the systemd side: I agree with what you > > wrote. My Arch system takes for ever (subjectively) to boot, maby > > 20 to 30 sec AFTER I give the encrypted password, then I have to > > wait what feels like an eternity to get my NIC to find an IP and > > initialize (wither or not static or DHCP is used). I am soooooo > > glad systemd fixed that boot speed issue. OTHO, eh. Not really > > that big of a deal for me to dig into it and fix it. > > Hey Damon. > > I probably thought that at first, but your point about paying the > bills is valid. If worked switched to a systemd based OS next week I'd > switch and suck it up. And mumble a bit. Gotta pay the bills, no doubt about it. Systemd is such a mess it presents a huge opportunity for trainers. If I were offered a systemd trainer job for the right money, I'd shut up and systemd. I'd even use it at home, to get home experience with my work systems. None of which means I'd believe in systemd. I'd just laugh all the way to the bank. This was the world I lived in when I was a developer in the Windows world. But I'd think twice about criticizing the character, ability or opinion of systemd rejecters. Because in my heart I'd know they're right. SteveT From damon at damtek.com Sun Feb 18 00:24:13 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 00:24:13 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <20180217202913.1e524fd8@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217202913.1e524fd8@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> On 02/17/2018 08:29 PM, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:34:01 -0500 > "Damon L. Chesser via Ale" wrote: > >> The Market has spoken. > I'd label the preceding as a premature declaration of victory. I'll bet > you Red Hat is shocked at the number and mindshare of holdout distros, > especially since a lot of them are using inits other than sysvinit, so > in many dimensions they are demonstrably better than systemd. Not really a label, it was meant to be an observation. >> Perhaps it was a rigged game with a rigged >> vote?? Eh.? roll you own. > What the hell do you think millions of us are doing? Projects have > sanitized Arch and Manjaro. The systemd-free Devuan project is being > used in shops all over the place. Former Debian, Ubuntu, Redhat, Fedora > and OpenSuSe users populate the worlds of Void Linux, Devuan, and *BSD, > bringing with their knowledge and common sense. hmmm, missed that in my myopia. I really don't move in those circles.? I just grab a distro and install it and they all (major) default to systemd.? I mean, are there really major distros moving to avoid systemd?? I know you can grab Arch or Gento and do either, but aside from that?? Devuan, is it alive and well?? *BSD?? Solid OS, I guess, I never used it much, but that is a tiny, tiny market share.? Serious questions, no sarcasm meant at all. > >> If this sounds harsh, it is not meant to >> be. > It's just the Libertarian in you. Well, we're all Libertarian, and > plenty of us voted by switching distros. Although systemd commands the > major mindshare in big-iron corporations, plenty of businesses and > individuals use its alternatives and like it that way. yeah, no large business, but they don't care.? They just want to buy support and that means Red Hat and systemd.? Some Ubunut. Small business, don't care, they want it for nothing and will take what ever their expert tells them will work. > >> Just factual on what My View is.? I just don't get it. > OK, listen to what the systemd-free folks are really saying. They are saying, don't force it down our throats.? Who is? or perhaps I am missing it? > >> The >> emotional turmoil.? Really? > A piece of with-us-or-agin-us software on 70% of Linux boxes make it > inconvenient for us. Yeah, *we* don't use it, but there's always some > fool who thinks it's cool and new to gratuitously dependency a piece of > formerly init-independent software to systemd. It's a hassle. Think of > how you feel when people send you MS Office documents with MS Office > proprietary features. You get mad. Valid.? Agreed. > >> People are dying the world over for a >> variety of reasons. > That's over the top. If discourse didn't start til people died, this > would be a horrible world. The preceding sentence is a no-op. of course.? it is to draw attention to it.? to much drama. > >> No matter what side of an issue you take, there >> is mass injustice > Ditto. Ditto. > >> people are up in arms YEARS after an init >> system is replaced?? OK.? Put it into perspective. > Yes, YEARS. Put that into perspective. I don't remember any other free > software that this happened with. You might want to really listen to > folks who don't use systemd and work to keep it that way. Gnome shell anybody?? Gnome used to be good.? Now I use XFCE4 or Mint (derivative of Gnome shell, but a very usable one).? I could (and face to face I do) go on a rant about how I don't want my tablet to act like my phone that acts like my desktop.? I am still made at Gnome for making changes taking choice away.? I can understand THAT. Grub anybody (for another example).? People hated GRUB Lilo was sooo simple to use.? Network manager.? Used to rip it out every chance I got. but then again, I used to configure my wireless by hand and use iwconfig to get it working.? Just seems like change.? While there are distros running that don't use them, are they more than just a niche?? Again, a real question.? I will go and search such things out and see the state of those projects. > > And please, if you want to answer points I've made, please interleave > post so we all know the context to which you're replying. Yeah, point taken, I actually noted that in my last reply.? Default mail client, was to lazy to jump in and change it.? Also tainted with outlook.? I actually hate top posting for all but the most brief response. > > SteveT > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From pizza at shaftnet.org Sat Feb 17 18:15:05 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 18:15:05 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <5A88AD5302000075000378E6@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <71a0a548-7202-e651-a615-323eda722c6c@damtek.com> <5A88AD5302000075000378E6@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: <20180217231505.GH31054@shaftnet.org> On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 05:31:47PM -0500, James Taylor via Ale wrote: > On my distro I can still install syslog-ng and disable the journald stuff. > I'll have to figure it out eventually, but not yet. Once you have a traditional syslog daemon installed and running, forwarding journald's output to syslog is as simple as adding this line to /etc/systemd/journald.conf: ForwardToSyslog=yes Then you can add one of these: Storage=volatile # keeps a small in-memory log buffer Storage=none # disables all log retention, forwarding only. BTW, with journald forward to syslog you get the best of all worlds -- systemd+journald captures *everything* a process emits (ie stdout/stderr) instead only what was explicitly sent to syslog. IME that feature has proven itself to be invaluable. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Sat Feb 17 09:33:31 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 09:33:31 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 08:58:22AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a > lot faster. If you're booting your desktop then you're probably > already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some > coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an > issue. Faster boot times aren't the primary benefit. The main point is to have a set of fully dependency-resolved set of services/actions. A side benefit of this is parallelism, which in turn leads to better boot times. For example, the night before last I switched my home IPv6 provider from a Hurricane Electric tunnel to Comcast's native static service. When I restarted the network interface, systemd automatically restarted all dependent services, without my needing to do anything else. > For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? > Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. Think of cloud instances that come and go based on realtime demand. The faster things start up, the faster they can start serving. I'm not saying that use case necessarily matters to anyone here, but I'll take improved boot times all the same. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From damon at damtek.com Sun Feb 18 12:55:59 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 12:55:59 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217202913.1e524fd8@mydesk.domain.cxm> <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> Message-ID: <4ace4221-bf1b-85d8-cb5d-94c56a42004f@damtek.com> On 02/18/2018 12:24 AM, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > Now I use XFCE4 or Mint (derivative of Gnome shell, but a very usable > one).? I could (and face to face I do) go on a rant about how I don't > want my tablet to act like my phone that acts like my desktop.? I am > still made a I meant to say I use Cinnamon, but I typed Mint. -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sun Feb 18 15:41:23 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:41:23 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Sat, 17 Feb 2018 09:33:31 -0500 Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 08:58:22AM -0500, leam hall via Ale wrote: > > I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is > > a lot faster. If you're booting your desktop then you're probably > > already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some > > coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an > > issue. > > Faster boot times aren't the primary benefit. > > The main point is to have a set of fully dependency-resolved set of > services/actions. Daemontools, daemontools-encore, runit and s6 all have the ability to define a dependency-resolved set of services/actions. You define them with "if" statements in the run script instead of services, but the result is the same. Plus, with the daemontools-inspired inits, you can decide your own definition of a dependency process being "up", so if you don't like the daemon author's definition of its being "up", you can make up your own. It's pretty cool. It also isn't all that necessary. Most run scripts, as they come from the factory (at least with Void Linux) have no process dependency checking, and in practice things seem to work just fine. But if one wants process dependency checking, it simply requires a simple "if" statement within the dependent process' run script. > A side benefit of this is parallelism, which in > turn leads to better boot times. > > For example, the night before last I switched my home IPv6 provider > from a Hurricane Electric tunnel to Comcast's native static service. > When I restarted the network interface, systemd automatically > restarted all dependent services, without my needing to do anything > else. Runit can do that. I'm not sure it's a good idea: I'd rather ip link set dev eth0 down;ip link set dev eth0 up, and same with wlo1. With such a change, I'd rather fix it up manually. For situations where the network goes down and back up again, all I can say is my computer brings back its network connection without the need of having the network be a service. > > > For servers, if you really want uptime, why aren't you redundant? > > Reboot time is again not an issue if the service stays up. > > Think of cloud instances that come and go based on realtime demand. > The faster things start up, the faster they can start serving. > > I'm not saying that use case necessarily matters to anyone here, but > I'll take improved boot times all the same. I'm sure nobody here begrudges the ability to bring up and down containers on demand, and have them boot in a couple seconds. I certainly don't. My use case isn't universal. Problem is, with systemd's welded together entanglement of large sections of software with applications and the underlying OS, systemd completely changes the way you adjust your software, and IMHO not for the better if you're at all DIY. And systemd is so entangled, you can't just yank it out and substitute another init. Systemd is the only init system the preceding sentence is true for. The systemd cabal is saying that their use case IS universal, and my use case doesn't count. Because of systemd's entanglement, replacing it is extremely difficult, leaving people with my use case in a much more difficult situation. This is why, years after the Debian decision, systemd is so reviled and fought against. You never saw this kind of thing with Vim vs Emacs: Neither tried to weld itself into irreplacibility. You don't see this thing with KDE vs Gnome: Neither was successful enough in welding itself into irreplacibility. The last piece of software to generate this level of antipathy and resistance was Windows. SteveT Steve Litt January 2018 featured book: Troubleshooting: Why Bother? http://www.troubleshooters.com/twb From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sun Feb 18 15:53:52 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:53:52 -0500 Subject: [ale] Using runit or s6 on top of systemd Message-ID: <20180218155352.3e5cefb4@mydesk.domain.cxm> Hi all, One alternative not discussed here is to use the process supervision portion of runit or s6 to spawn some of your daemons in systemd. It's pretty simple: 1) Create a runit or s6 systemd service that starts early. 2) For each service you want to transfer to runit or s6: a) Disable it in systemd b) Enable it in runit or s6 Over time, more and more of your services will be run from runit or s6. Be sure to back up the directories that define the runit or s6 supervised processes. On my computer that's a 628K backup. Runit and s6 are daemontools-inspired init systems with similar architectures. Runit houses its process supervisor in a process outside of PID1, while s6 houses its process supervisor inside PID1. Runit is conceptually simpler, s6 is more robust and withstands greater challenges. Runit depends on polling much more than s6, although runit's level of polling has no material effect on machine efficiency. SteveT From joey at joeykelly.net Sun Feb 18 16:13:31 2018 From: joey at joeykelly.net (Joey Kelly) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:13:31 -0600 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217202913.1e524fd8@mydesk.domain.cxm> <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> Message-ID: <29213580.8Qt8qrBSKF@elisha.atlnet> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 12:24:13 AM Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > > hmmm, missed that in my myopia. I really don't move in those circles. I > just grab a distro and install it and they all (major) default to > systemd. I mean, are there really major distros moving to avoid > systemd? I know you can grab Arch or Gento and do either, but aside > from that? Devuan, is it alive and well? *BSD? Solid OS, I guess, I > never used it much, but that is a tiny, tiny market share. Serious > questions, no sarcasm meant at all. Don't slackware get no love anymore? -- Joey Kelly Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant http://joeykelly.net 504-239-6550 From slitt at troubleshooters.com Sun Feb 18 18:13:26 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:13:26 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <29213580.8Qt8qrBSKF@elisha.atlnet> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217202913.1e524fd8@mydesk.domain.cxm> <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> <29213580.8Qt8qrBSKF@elisha.atlnet> Message-ID: <20180218181326.56b9c1b6@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:13:31 -0600 Joey Kelly via Ale wrote: > On Sunday, February 18, 2018 12:24:13 AM Damon L. Chesser via Ale > wrote: > > > > > hmmm, missed that in my myopia. I really don't move in those > > circles. I just grab a distro and install it and they all (major) > > default to systemd. I mean, are there really major distros moving > > to avoid systemd? I know you can grab Arch or Gento and do either, > > but aside from that? Devuan, is it alive and well? *BSD? Solid > > OS, I guess, I never used it much, but that is a tiny, tiny market > > share. Serious questions, no sarcasm meant at all. > > Don't slackware get no love anymore? > Yes. My mistake for not mentioning Slackware as one of the sans-systemd distros. I'd imagine Slack is a VERY good distro for the DIY person. SteveT From joey at joeykelly.net Sun Feb 18 18:31:06 2018 From: joey at joeykelly.net (Joey Kelly) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:31:06 -0600 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <20180218181326.56b9c1b6@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <29213580.8Qt8qrBSKF@elisha.atlnet> <20180218181326.56b9c1b6@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <2166077.WmjPc8J9g4@elisha.atlnet> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 06:13:26 PM Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > > > > Don't slackware get no love anymore? > > Yes. My mistake for not mentioning Slackware as one of the sans-systemd > distros. I'd imagine Slack is a VERY good distro for the DIY person. It definitely is DIY, but so is Arch. I've been using it on the desktop and in labs for years, and am working towards putting it on most of my servers. I dabbled with FreeBSD for prod, but its learning curve is a little too steep... as a trade-off, I can wrangle Slackware and be happier a lot quicker. Slack's perennial problem is 3rd-party package mangling. The base OS (you always want to install full package sets, if not the entire DVD) is great, but while sbopkg and sbotools are handy, the slackbuilds universe is a moving target. Where I'm at now, having decided to not pursue FreeBSD, is compiling and configuring my own set (slackbuilds plus cpan), with the next step being hosting that as a repo, pulled in via slackpkg+. I think this is about the worst aspect of using Slackware... having to be a build maintainer. I'd much rather yum, apt-get or pkg install foo and let others fight with compiling software. -- Joey Kelly Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant http://joeykelly.net 504-239-6550 From joey at joeykelly.net Sun Feb 18 18:32:19 2018 From: joey at joeykelly.net (Joey Kelly) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:32:19 -0600 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <20180218181326.56b9c1b6@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <29213580.8Qt8qrBSKF@elisha.atlnet> <20180218181326.56b9c1b6@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <1903387.talCnujjSE@elisha.atlnet> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 06:13:26 PM Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > > > > > Don't slackware get no love anymore? > > Yes. My mistake for not mentioning Slackware as one of the sans-systemd > distros. I'd imagine Slack is a VERY good distro for the DIY person. It definitely is DIY, but so is Arch. I've been using it on the desktop and in labs for years, and am working towards putting it on most of my servers. I dabbled with FreeBSD for prod, but its learning curve is a little too steep... as a trade-off, I can wrangle Slackware and be happier a lot quicker. Slack's perennial problem is 3rd-party package mangling. The base OS (you always want to install full package sets, if not the entire DVD) is great, but while sbopkg and sbotools are handy, the slackbuilds universe is a moving target. Where I'm at now, having decided to not pursue FreeBSD, is compiling and configuring my own set (slackbuilds plus cpan), with the next step being hosting that as a repo, pulled in via slackpkg+. I think this is about the worst aspect of using Slackware... having to be a build maintainer. I'd much rather yum, apt-get or pkg install foo and let others fight with compiling software. -- Joey Kelly Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant http://joeykelly.net 504-239-6550 From pizza at shaftnet.org Sun Feb 18 21:57:30 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:57:30 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 03:41:23PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > It also isn't all that necessary. Most run scripts, as they come from > the factory (at least with Void Linux) have no process dependency > checking, and in practice things seem to work just fine. But if one > wants process dependency checking, it simply requires a simple "if" > statement within the dependent process' run script. So... if the parent restarts, who is going to restart the dependents? > Runit can do that. I'm not sure it's a good idea: I'd rather ip link > set dev eth0 down;ip link set dev eth0 up, and same with wlo1. With > such a change, I'd rather fix it up manually. For situations where the > network goes down and back up again, all I can say is my computer > brings back its network connection without the need of having the > network be a service. I'd rather _not_ fix things up manually, by the time I've finished everyhing it would have been faster (and less disruptive) to just reboot the system. Annoyingly there's a big gotcha that I missed -- Google apparently requires matching IPv6 RDNS entries. I'd set up the HE tunnel so long ago I forgot that they automatically created those entries. Meanwhile, 2 days in, and Comcast hasn't fulfiled my ticket. (DNS had already switched over by the time I'd discovered this, so I couldn't just revert back. Joy...) > Problem is, with systemd's welded together entanglement of large > sections of software with applications and the underlying OS, systemd > completely changes the way you adjust your software, and IMHO not for > the better if you're at all DIY. You and I draw the "DIY" line at different places. (I don't administer my own systems for the joy of it; they have specific jobs to fulfil and I'm too much of a paranoid git to trust my data on anyone else's systems..) > You never saw this kind of thing with Vim vs Emacs: Neither tried to > weld itself into irreplacibility. You don't see this thing with KDE vs > Gnome: Neither was successful enough in welding itself into > irreplacibility. Emacs's viper-mode is arguably a better vi than vim. :P > The last piece of software to generate this level of antipathy and > resistance was Windows. ...Yet for all that antipathy and resistance, windows still easily rules the [PC] world. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Sun Feb 18 07:30:14 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 07:30:14 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217202913.1e524fd8@mydesk.domain.cxm> <2257582f-755a-cd37-a022-4b634946cf08@damtek.com> Message-ID: <20180218123014.GJ31054@shaftnet.org> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 12:24:13AM -0500, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > Grub anybody (for another example).? People hated GRUB Lilo was sooo simple > to use.? Network manager.? Used to rip it out every chance I got. I don't miss LI(LO). Brittle as all hell. grub was a quantum leap forward in functionality, usability, and reliability. One could argue about the merits/approaches of grub1 vs grub2, but I also understand the technical reasoning/necessity for the changes (in a word: UEFI) - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Mon Feb 19 08:47:35 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:47:35 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217200220.44455cd5@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180219134735.GM31054@shaftnet.org> On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 08:12:44PM -0500, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > I am with him.? I just don't care.? That is an opinion, not a dilemma.? I > also don't like watermelon.? Nothing to argue about here.? If you like > watermelon, eat it.? If you want init $FOO use it.? I just don't want it > (particularly, I mean, you need some sort of init) or really even care about > it (which init is used), as long as I can us the Linux (GNU or otherwise) > when it it booted. From the "objector's" perspective, they are being "forced" to use systemd against their wishes. And, somewhat understandably, they don't like that. (Or in the case of Devuan, "forced" to have libsystemd physically present on their system) "init system freedom" (to borrow the nonsensical Devuan catchphrase), much like the other "freedoms" that Linux is supposedly about, applies to those who *put together* Linux systems. As soon as you use the system that someone else has put together, you're restricted by the choices *they* made. If you don't like those choices, you're perfectly free (and encouraged) to DIY and roll your own reflecting your own choices/needs. Can that be a lot of work? Absolutely. But if one's not willing to undertake that effort for themselves, one doesn't get to complain about someone else not being willing do that work either -- at least if no money is changing hands. https://lwn.net/Articles/734038/ - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From JLightner at dsservices.com Mon Feb 19 09:41:43 2018 From: JLightner at dsservices.com (Lightner, Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:41:43 +0000 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? Message-ID: I figure if folks are going to go on ad nauseum about init vs systemd again we should probably resurrect this other irresolvable question as well. Can't we just leave it at: Some people hate SystemD. Some people love SystemD. Most people don't give a damn one way or another and just use and learn the one that comes with their preferred distro. CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 09:44:21 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 09:44:21 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <20180219134735.GM31054@shaftnet.org> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217200220.44455cd5@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219134735.GM31054@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <1519051461.3176.9.camel@gmail.com> One would think that the distro's that switched to systemd were now sending the Spanish Inquisition to all non-converts. And they weren't sending the comfy chair :-) I was nearly doubled over reading how using a giant plethora of miscellaneous tools everything in systemd could be replicated with Poettering. I guess they missed the entire point. -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 09:47:19 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 09:47:19 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1519051639.3176.11.camel@gmail.com> SPOILER ALERT!!!! On Mon, 2018-02-19 at 14:41 +0000, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: > I figure if folks are going to go on ad nauseum about init vs systemd > again we should probably resurrect this other irresolvable question > as well. > > Can?t we just leave it at: > > > Some people hate SystemD. > > Some people love SystemD. > > Most people don?t give a damn one way or another and just use and > learn the one that comes with their preferred distro. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!!!! Who knew?!?!? Damn! You totally blew the surprise ending! > > > > > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or > confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended > recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, > copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information > is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this > electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the > sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From questy at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 10:19:42 2018 From: questy at gmail.com (Jerald Sheets) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 10:19:42 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: So let me interject into this conversational process a ?norm? that?s evolving out in silicon valley. We don?t reboot. When a machine is sufficiently ?Sick? that something as ?profound? as a reboot is expected to be needed, the instance is terminated and a new node stands up in its place. There?s no such thing as persistent nodes any more in large scale work. YES, there?s a lot of architecture around that, and YES there?s a lot of clustering and session maintenance voodoo around that on the application side. However, not having to keep up with instances any more and/or terminate/replace instead of reboot is every bit as fast as some of these boot times we?re discussing here. It is my opinion (and prediction) that this will be something of a non-issue over the next several years. I cannot tell you the number of systems that are either running in a containerized fashion with CoreOS, stripped down operating systems you create yourself with not much more than a boot loader and a single boot environment on the OS to run a single app with a single set of boot scripts for that single app or even micro containers over docker that run nothing but OS libraries and language dependencies required to run the app itself?nothing more?(i.e., no SystemD OR SysV Init at all) Our long-standing way of doing things is on the move again, folks. This particular conversation would now be classified as a ?legacy? conversation. Look to container and lambda-style infrastructure to start taking big chunks of workload ?out there?. While you may be skeptical because of your current environment you care for and feed, one day you may have to leave it and go somewhere else, and what you find at your new role may look nothing like what you?re dealing with today. My last 3 years (23rd, 24th, and 25th year in the business)has been more education than I encountered the first 3 years of my career. ?j > On Feb 18, 2018, at 9:57 PM, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 03:41:23PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: >> It also isn't all that necessary. Most run scripts, as they come from >> the factory (at least with Void Linux) have no process dependency >> checking, and in practice things seem to work just fine. But if one >> wants process dependency checking, it simply requires a simple "if" >> statement within the dependent process' run script. > > So... if the parent restarts, who is going to restart the dependents? > >> Runit can do that. I'm not sure it's a good idea: I'd rather ip link >> set dev eth0 down;ip link set dev eth0 up, and same with wlo1. With >> such a change, I'd rather fix it up manually. For situations where the >> network goes down and back up again, all I can say is my computer >> brings back its network connection without the need of having the >> network be a service. > > I'd rather _not_ fix things up manually, by the time I've finished > everyhing it would have been faster (and less disruptive) to just reboot > the system. > > Annoyingly there's a big gotcha that I missed -- Google apparently > requires matching IPv6 RDNS entries. I'd set up the HE tunnel > so long ago I forgot that they automatically created those > entries. Meanwhile, 2 days in, and Comcast hasn't fulfiled my ticket. > > (DNS had already switched over by the time I'd discovered this, so I > couldn't just revert back. Joy...) > >> Problem is, with systemd's welded together entanglement of large >> sections of software with applications and the underlying OS, systemd >> completely changes the way you adjust your software, and IMHO not for >> the better if you're at all DIY. > > You and I draw the "DIY" line at different places. > > (I don't administer my own systems for the joy of it; they have specific > jobs to fulfil and I'm too much of a paranoid git to trust my data on > anyone else's systems..) > >> You never saw this kind of thing with Vim vs Emacs: Neither tried to >> weld itself into irreplacibility. You don't see this thing with KDE vs >> Gnome: Neither was successful enough in welding itself into >> irreplacibility. > > Emacs's viper-mode is arguably a better vi than vim. :P > >> The last piece of software to generate this level of antipathy and >> resistance was Windows. > > ...Yet for all that antipathy and resistance, windows still easily rules > the [PC] world. > > - Solomon > -- > Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org > Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ > Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 874 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From damon at damtek.com Mon Feb 19 10:31:47 2018 From: damon at damtek.com (Damon L. Chesser) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 10:31:47 -0500 Subject: [ale] Why systemd vs sysvinit really doesn't matter to me In-Reply-To: <20180219134735.GM31054@shaftnet.org> References: <5A8877B202000075000378E2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> <20180217200220.44455cd5@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219134735.GM31054@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <15be579b-6900-4b98-ca7a-b9cf41214588@damtek.com> On 02/19/2018 08:47 AM, Solomon Peachy wrote: > On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 08:12:44PM -0500, Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: >> I am with him.? I just don't care.? That is an opinion, not a dilemma.? I >> also don't like watermelon.? Nothing to argue about here.? If you like >> watermelon, eat it.? If you want init $FOO use it.? I just don't want it >> (particularly, I mean, you need some sort of init) or really even care about >> it (which init is used), as long as I can us the Linux (GNU or otherwise) >> when it it booted. > From the "objector's" perspective, they are being "forced" to use > systemd against their wishes. And, somewhat understandably, they don't > like that. (Or in the case of Devuan, "forced" to have libsystemd > physically present on their system) > > "init system freedom" (to borrow the nonsensical Devuan catchphrase), > much like the other "freedoms" that Linux is supposedly about, applies > to those who *put together* Linux systems. As soon as you use the > system that someone else has put together, you're restricted by the > choices *they* made. If you don't like those choices, you're perfectly > free (and encouraged) to DIY and roll your own reflecting your own > choices/needs. > > Can that be a lot of work? Absolutely. But if one's not willing to > undertake that effort for themselves, one doesn't get to complain about > someone else not being willing do that work either -- at least if no > money is changing hands. Best statement yet, one that completely encapsulated my thoughts on the matter. > > https://lwn.net/Articles/734038/ > > - Solomon -- Damon at damtek.com 404-271-8699 From James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com Mon Feb 19 11:08:14 2018 From: James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com (James Taylor) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:08:14 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <5A8AB01E0200007500051BBB@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> I don't entirely disagree with that observation, but there are still, and will be a lot of major systems that don't lend themselves well to that model. For example, the SAP HANA systems use multiterabyte in memory databases that don't get rebooted because it can take hours, maybe days to write back and reload the databases from disk. That was one of the drivers for live kernel patching that is now available. I agree that large containerized server farms (plantations?) are the norm for consumer cloud space, but I don't think non-ephemeral systems are going away any time soon. None of which is relevant to the systemd argument, in any case. -jt James Taylor 678-697-9420 james.taylor at eastcobbgroup.com >>> Jerald Sheets via Ale 2/19/2018 10:19 AM >>> So let me interject into this conversational process a ?norm? that?s evolving out in silicon valley. We don?t reboot. When a machine is sufficiently ?Sick? that something as ?profound? as a reboot is expected to be needed, the instance is terminated and a new node stands up in its place. There?s no such thing as persistent nodes any more in large scale work. YES, there?s a lot of architecture around that, and YES there?s a lot of clustering and session maintenance voodoo around that on the application side. However, not having to keep up with instances any more and/or terminate/replace instead of reboot is every bit as fast as some of these boot times we?re discussing here. It is my opinion (and prediction) that this will be something of a non-issue over the next several years. I cannot tell you the number of systems that are either running in a containerized fashion with CoreOS, stripped down operating systems you create yourself with not much more than a boot loader and a single boot environment on the OS to run a single app with a single set of boot scripts for that single app or even micro containers over docker that run nothing but OS libraries and language dependencies required to run the app itself?nothing more?(i.e., no SystemD OR SysV Init at all) Our long-standing way of doing things is on the move again, folks. This particular conversation would now be classified as a ?legacy? conversation. Look to container and lambda-style infrastructure to start taking big chunks of workload ?out there?. While you may be skeptical because of your current environment you care for and feed, one day you may have to leave it and go somewhere else, and what you find at your new role may look nothing like what you?re dealing with today. My last 3 years (23rd, 24th, and 25th year in the business)has been more education than I encountered the first 3 years of my career. ?j > On Feb 18, 2018, at 9:57 PM, Solomon Peachy via Ale wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 03:41:23PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: >> It also isn't all that necessary. Most run scripts, as they come from >> the factory (at least with Void Linux) have no process dependency >> checking, and in practice things seem to work just fine. But if one >> wants process dependency checking, it simply requires a simple "if" >> statement within the dependent process' run script. > > So... if the parent restarts, who is going to restart the dependents? > >> Runit can do that. I'm not sure it's a good idea: I'd rather ip link >> set dev eth0 down;ip link set dev eth0 up, and same with wlo1. With >> such a change, I'd rather fix it up manually. For situations where the >> network goes down and back up again, all I can say is my computer >> brings back its network connection without the need of having the >> network be a service. > > I'd rather _not_ fix things up manually, by the time I've finished > everyhing it would have been faster (and less disruptive) to just reboot > the system. > > Annoyingly there's a big gotcha that I missed -- Google apparently > requires matching IPv6 RDNS entries. I'd set up the HE tunnel > so long ago I forgot that they automatically created those > entries. Meanwhile, 2 days in, and Comcast hasn't fulfiled my ticket. > > (DNS had already switched over by the time I'd discovered this, so I > couldn't just revert back. Joy...) > >> Problem is, with systemd's welded together entanglement of large >> sections of software with applications and the underlying OS, systemd >> completely changes the way you adjust your software, and IMHO not for >> the better if you're at all DIY. > > You and I draw the "DIY" line at different places. > > (I don't administer my own systems for the joy of it; they have specific > jobs to fulfil and I'm too much of a paranoid git to trust my data on > anyone else's systems..) > >> You never saw this kind of thing with Vim vs Emacs: Neither tried to >> weld itself into irreplacibility. You don't see this thing with KDE vs >> Gnome: Neither was successful enough in welding itself into >> irreplacibility. > > Emacs's viper-mode is arguably a better vi than vim. :P > >> The last piece of software to generate this level of antipathy and >> resistance was Windows. > > ...Yet for all that antipathy and resistance, windows still easily rules > the [PC] world. > > - Solomon > -- > Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org > Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ > Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From leamhall at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 11:24:26 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:24:26 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: On 02/19/2018 10:19 AM, Jerald Sheets via Ale wrote: > So let me interject into this conversational process a ?norm? that?s > evolving out in silicon valley. Let me render an opinion based on Jerald's comments. Containerization will change "things" as much as VMWare. SMBs will use a cloud provider (AWS, Linode). Large enterprises will use thin clients or portable workstations to connect to their environment. We've probably all seen the signs. Griping about systemd feels good but doesn't prepare me for the next career challenges. So, what to do? We have, individually and collectively, at least a few choices. 1. Change careers so systemd/boot times/containers don't matter. 2. Hang out with the legacy systems. 3. Join those moving to the "new thing". 4. Help enable the "even newer thing". I'd say the "new thing" (#3) is cloud and the "even newer thing" is containers (#4). There are multiple container technologies and the market is likely to settle on one. As I look at my career and this list the path forward isn't clear. I get paid for #2 while #1 has been a long standing option. Would need energy and a team to do #4 while #3 is a safe forward option. However, "safe" is relative; they can find younger and cheaper cloud admins. Thoughts? Leam From JLightner at dsservices.com Mon Feb 19 11:53:27 2018 From: JLightner at dsservices.com (Lightner, Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:53:27 +0000 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: We are doing containers on our own systems (i.e. not cloud) using CoreOS. CoreOS (the base OS) relies on systemd. I don't know that going to the cloud for containers will eliminate the need to interact with systemd. I started working with DOS 2.0 and Lotus 123v1A in the early 80s. Later I had to move on to Novell file servers and later yet to AT&T UNIX then various other UNIX flavors and finally to Linux. I use MS Windows workstations because that is invariably what my employer assigns no matter how much they use open systems for servers. Heck these days I even help my neighbor with her MacBook though I despise Apple's proprietary mindset. Moving on is something I've done many times in my career and personal life. I'll likely continue to have to do. With every new thing comes the folks that equate it with Satanism and/or communism but all the gnashing of teeth has never halted any of these new things. In the meantime things generally lauded by one and all (e.g. NeXT) seem to have gone by the way side. Come to the dark side Luke. You know I am your farther... -----Original Message----- From: Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of Leam Hall via Ale Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 11:24 AM To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) On 02/19/2018 10:19 AM, Jerald Sheets via Ale wrote: > So let me interject into this conversational process a ?norm? that?s > evolving out in silicon valley. Let me render an opinion based on Jerald's comments. Containerization will change "things" as much as VMWare. SMBs will use a cloud provider (AWS, Linode). Large enterprises will use thin clients or portable workstations to connect to their environment. We've probably all seen the signs. Griping about systemd feels good but doesn't prepare me for the next career challenges. So, what to do? We have, individually and collectively, at least a few choices. 1. Change careers so systemd/boot times/containers don't matter. 2. Hang out with the legacy systems. 3. Join those moving to the "new thing". 4. Help enable the "even newer thing". I'd say the "new thing" (#3) is cloud and the "even newer thing" is containers (#4). There are multiple container technologies and the market is likely to settle on one. As I look at my career and this list the path forward isn't clear. I get paid for #2 while #1 has been a long standing option. Would need energy and a team to do #4 while #3 is a safe forward option. However, "safe" is relative; they can find younger and cheaper cloud admins. Thoughts? Leam _______________________________________________ Ale mailing list Ale at ale.org http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From jim.kinney at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 12:08:51 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:08:51 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <6A10AB7B-BA24-44C9-A51E-1B978FE565AD@gmail.com> I vote for #1 but I need a backer to start up another brewery :-) On February 19, 2018 11:24:26 AM EST, Leam Hall via Ale wrote: >On 02/19/2018 10:19 AM, Jerald Sheets via Ale wrote: >> So let me interject into this conversational process a ?norm? that?s >> evolving out in silicon valley. > > >Let me render an opinion based on Jerald's comments. Containerization >will change "things" as much as VMWare. SMBs will use a cloud provider >(AWS, Linode). Large enterprises will use thin clients or portable >workstations to connect to their environment. We've probably all seen >the signs. > >Griping about systemd feels good but doesn't prepare me for the next >career challenges. So, what to do? > >We have, individually and collectively, at least a few choices. > > 1. Change careers so systemd/boot times/containers don't matter. > 2. Hang out with the legacy systems. > 3. Join those moving to the "new thing". > 4. Help enable the "even newer thing". > >I'd say the "new thing" (#3) is cloud and the "even newer thing" is >containers (#4). There are multiple container technologies and the >market is likely to settle on one. > >As I look at my career and this list the path forward isn't clear. I >get >paid for #2 while #1 has been a long standing option. Would need energy > >and a team to do #4 while #3 is a safe forward option. However, "safe" >is relative; they can find younger and cheaper cloud admins. > >Thoughts? > >Leam > >_______________________________________________ >Ale mailing list >Ale at ale.org >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 12:26:05 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:26:05 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: > We are doing containers on our own systems (i.e. not cloud) using CoreOS. CoreOS (the base OS) relies on systemd. I don't know that going to the cloud for containers will eliminate the need to interact with systemd. Yeah, I asked on #CoreOS and they said it required systemd. Since RH bought CoreOS I'm not sure how Docker will fare. Maybe they will win the container wars, maybe not. I can see systemd or something like it being useful for a container host OS. At that point it becomes a question of "where in the stack I want to work" since I don't have enough brain cells for the entire stack. Any insights on what container platform will get the majority of paying market share? Leam From slitt at troubleshooters.com Mon Feb 19 12:27:05 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:27:05 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180219122705.26913a02@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:57:30 -0500 Solomon Peachy wrote: > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 03:41:23PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > > It also isn't all that necessary. Most run scripts, as they come > > from the factory (at least with Void Linux) have no process > > dependency checking, and in practice things seem to work just fine. > > But if one wants process dependency checking, it simply requires a > > simple "if" statement within the dependent process' run script. > > So... if the parent restarts, who is going to restart the dependents? I was discussing dependent daemons that depend on a dependency daemon. When one or both crash, Runit restarts it/them within 5 seconds. Now you're talking about parents and what, dependents, children? You mean like Apache, which forks a process for each connection? With software I've seen, the parent cleans up the children. If the parent crashes, it sends a hup or something to the children, which should cause them to shut down. With the software I've seen, if a daemon forks processes, it's not the init system's business to track them, kill or restart any "children." Anyway, a runit run script can run a background process and then exec to the daemon to be run, or it can send itself a message to start a different daemon before starting the one it's supposed to start. It's a shellscript: The possibilities are infinite. And before someone else brings it up, it's a very different kind of shellscript than the 300 line S12_my_daemon_five_event_script thingys. I don't think I ever saw a run script more than 15 lines long, and most are under 7. > > > Runit can do that. I'm not sure it's a good idea: I'd rather ip link > > set dev eth0 down;ip link set dev eth0 up, and same with wlo1. With > > such a change, I'd rather fix it up manually. For situations where > > the network goes down and back up again, all I can say is my > > computer brings back its network connection without the need of > > having the network be a service. > > I'd rather _not_ fix things up manually, by the time I've finished > everyhing it would have been faster (and less disruptive) to just > reboot the system. Oh come mon man: ip link set dev eth0 down ip link set dev eth0 up ip link set dev wl01 down ip link set dev wl01 up Put em in a shellscript. While you're at it, end the shellscript with a test for upness: ip addr list [snip] > > Problem is, with systemd's welded together entanglement of large > > sections of software with applications and the underlying OS, > > systemd completely changes the way you adjust your software, and > > IMHO not for the better if you're at all DIY. > > You and I draw the "DIY" line at different places. Geez, I never noticed that. I bet nobody else did either :-) You and I obviously draw *a lot* of lines in different places. > > (I don't administer my own systems for the joy of it; they have > specific jobs to fulfil and I'm too much of a paranoid git to trust > my data on anyone else's systems..) Who in the world administers their systems for the joy of it? Nobody I know. DIY people administer their systems to make their systems do things how *they* want them done. To mold their computer to their use case, whether they type 120 WPM or 5 WPM. Is their vision 20/10, or 20/60 corrected? Do they think logically like a computer, or flightily like a human? Do you have breaks in your workday that neatly accommodate that 5 minute process, or do you have to go full out every minute of the day? Each one of these things influences your optimal user interface, so you change your interface via DIY. Some people choose a distro to accommodate their workflow. This becomes problematic when different distros have various of your optimal user interface elements. Who can forget the blind exodus from Ubuntu when Ubuntu replaced Gnome with (urk) Unity? DIY people just changed the WM/DE (Window manager/Desktop environment) and moved on. I spent 2 days making a home-grown hierarchical menu program in 1999, and have used it as part of my workflow ever since, including quickly bolting on a menu interface to an executable program with very complex command line args. DIY people do this: They replace repetitive riffs with menus, shellscripts, whatever. A little more work up front, a lot more relaxation going forward. And in their travels, DIY people learn the value of simple modules connected only on a need to know basis via simple, small and well documented interfaces. I'm not going to explain it to you: I learned it when I used to fix electronics for a living: Systems that are easily separated are easily troubleshot, easily repaired, and easily modified. DIY people don't put up with units interconnected every which way by thick, complex tentacles or even thick, go everywhere busses. DIY isn't for everyone. It takes a little extra work up front. It takes certain skills not everyone has. It invariably runs afoul of what's popular, because features and brokenness drive new purchases: DIY cuts into profits. SteveT From James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com Mon Feb 19 12:34:04 2018 From: James.Taylor at eastcobbgroup.com (James Taylor) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:34:04 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <5A8AC43C0200007500051BF2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> As far as I know, Docker is just a container management framework. All of my commercial servers use SUSE, so I don't see moving away from Docker here. I've never used Red Hat as a primary linux. The closest is some CentOS appliances, which don't require a lot of in-depth OS management. Looking from outside in, Red Hat seems to be moving more and more towards having their owned tools for things. Not something that looks comfortable from an outsider perspective. -jt James Taylor 678-697-9420 james.taylor at eastcobbgroup.com >>> leam hall via Ale 2/19/2018 12:26 PM >>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: > We are doing containers on our own systems (i.e. not cloud) using CoreOS. CoreOS (the base OS) relies on systemd. I don't know that going to the cloud for containers will eliminate the need to interact with systemd. Yeah, I asked on #CoreOS and they said it required systemd. Since RH bought CoreOS I'm not sure how Docker will fare. Maybe they will win the container wars, maybe not. I can see systemd or something like it being useful for a container host OS. At that point it becomes a question of "where in the stack I want to work" since I don't have enough brain cells for the entire stack. Any insights on what container platform will get the majority of paying market share? Leam _______________________________________________ Ale mailing list Ale at ale.org http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From leamhall at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 12:37:39 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (leam hall) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:37:39 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: <5A8AC43C0200007500051BF2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> <5A8AC43C0200007500051BF2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:34 PM, James Taylor wrote: > As far as I know, Docker is just a container management framework. > All of my commercial servers use SUSE, so I don't see moving away from Docker here. Ah, I thought Docker was also the host OS, or sat on one that was custom crafted for it. From JLightner at dsservices.com Mon Feb 19 12:42:00 2018 From: JLightner at dsservices.com (Lightner, Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:42:00 +0000 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> <5A8AC43C0200007500051BF2@inet.eastcobbgroup.com> Message-ID: RedHat's containerization platform is called Atomic (pre-CoreOS). They moved that to Docker some time ago. I'm pretty sure Atomic and CoreOS will converge. I suspect they bought CoreOS because they weren't getting much of the older Atomic folks to move to the new and the folks that were using CoreOS weren't moving to Atomic at all. We certainly weren't even though we use RHEL extensively for non-container systems. -----Original Message----- From: Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of leam hall via Ale Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 12:38 PM To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:34 PM, James Taylor wrote: > As far as I know, Docker is just a container management framework. > All of my commercial servers use SUSE, so I don't see moving away from Docker here. Ah, I thought Docker was also the host OS, or sat on one that was custom crafted for it. _______________________________________________ Ale mailing list Ale at ale.org http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From slitt at troubleshooters.com Mon Feb 19 12:50:57 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:50:57 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180219125057.39b1e25d@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:24:26 -0500 Leam Hall via Ale wrote: > On 02/19/2018 10:19 AM, Jerald Sheets via Ale wrote: > > So let me interject into this conversational process a ?norm? > > that?s evolving out in silicon valley. > > > Let me render an opinion based on Jerald's comments. Containerization > will change "things" as much as VMWare. SMBs will use a cloud > provider (AWS, Linode). Large enterprises will use thin clients or > portable workstations to connect to their environment. We've probably > all seen the signs. > > Griping about systemd feels good but doesn't prepare me for the next > career challenges. So, what to do? > > We have, individually and collectively, at least a few choices. > > 1. Change careers so systemd/boot times/containers don't > matter. 2. Hang out with the legacy systems. > 3. Join those moving to the "new thing". > 4. Help enable the "even newer thing". > > I'd say the "new thing" (#3) is cloud and the "even newer thing" is > containers (#4). There are multiple container technologies and the > market is likely to settle on one. > > As I look at my career and this list the path forward isn't clear. I > get paid for #2 while #1 has been a long standing option. Would need > energy and a team to do #4 while #3 is a safe forward option. > However, "safe" is relative; they can find younger and cheaper cloud > admins. > > Thoughts? One thought. Systemd was not the result of a meritocracy: It was financed by Redhat, who, as a purveyor of training and consultants, has everything to gain by a universally more complex GNU/Linux. During the coup, Redhat must finance the development and troubleshooting of systemd, and it doesn't come cheap. I'm pretty sure they expected everyone to accept systemd by late 2015. I think they might abandon systemd pretty soon, for yet another "new thing". If my suspicion is true, you can take your systemd learning and throw it in the trashcan, because it stops having relevance. I'm a purveyor of books and courses about troubleshooting, so to a certain extent I can afford to ignore what's going with one little section of one operating system. You're not in that position: I suggest you learn a lot about systemd, make money with systemd, but be ready to jump to the next thing (which might be even worse). I'd also suggest that, just to keep your perspective on how a computer works at the lower levels, you make your home computer init with runit or s6. The combination of systemd knowledge and runit or s6 knowledge will make you rare, and will frequently enable you to solve problems others can't. SteveT From questy at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 12:53:55 2018 From: questy at gmail.com (Jerald Sheets) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:53:55 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <115B57C9-E6FE-4155-AD9D-6EDF38ED14E5@gmail.com> I may be at fault for this weirdness. My punctuation was poor. In my original message on the original thread, I said: "CoreOS, stripped down operating systems you create yourself with not much more than a boot loader and a single boot environment on the OS to run a single app with a single set of boot scripts for that single app or even micro containers over docker that run nothing but OS libraries and language dependencies required to run the app itself?nothing more?? Change that to: "CoreOS stripped down operating systems you create yourself with not much more than a boot loader and a single boot environment on the OS to run a single app with a single set of boot scripts for that single app or even micro containers over docker that run nothing but OS libraries and language dependencies required to run the app itself?nothing more?" One comma and it screws my whole intent. The guys in engineering are creating custom containers that are specifically torn down and cobbled together from a very small subset of components up to and including only a boot loader, a few scripts, and some OS & Language libraries enough to run the app. It?s a lot harder to compromise something that has next to nothing you?re expecting to see on it. :) ?j > On Feb 19, 2018, at 12:26 PM, leam hall via Ale wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 11:53 AM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: >> We are doing containers on our own systems (i.e. not cloud) using CoreOS. CoreOS (the base OS) relies on systemd. I don't know that going to the cloud for containers will eliminate the need to interact with systemd. > > Yeah, I asked on #CoreOS and they said it required systemd. Since RH > bought CoreOS I'm not sure how Docker will fare. Maybe they will win > the container wars, maybe not. I can see systemd or something like it > being useful for a container host OS. At that point it becomes a > question of "where in the stack I want to work" since I don't have > enough brain cells for the entire stack. > > Any insights on what container platform will get the majority of > paying market share? > > Leam > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 874 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From djpfulio at jdpfu.com Mon Feb 19 13:30:11 2018 From: djpfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:30:11 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7896928e-5eee-0cde-6504-ec31023d52fe@jdpfu.com> On 02/19/2018 09:41 AM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential > information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not > the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the > contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have > received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the > sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you > I wasn't certain this message was for anyone on the list. From philip at turmel.org Mon Feb 19 14:13:52 2018 From: philip at turmel.org (Phil Turmel) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:13:52 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Neither. I like nano. On 02/19/2018 09:41 AM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: > I figure if folks are going to go on ad nauseum about init vs systemd > again we should probably resurrect this other irresolvable question as well. From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Mon Feb 19 14:15:54 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:15:54 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <49c23e9a-33a8-b030-0609-071f0038eee7@jdpfu.com> Looks to me like Silicon Valley is the enemy. We know we can't trust insta-goo-tweet-book with our data. I don't trust most smartphone apps that want network access or access to contacts or local files or calendars or ... anything they aren't directly supposed to make use of either. All that containers do is add more choice to the possible solutions mix. Many businesses will NEVER deploy a container, ever. Just like some businesses haven't deployed a single VM, ever. Shocking, I know. Either the decision makers don't buy into the hype or they are just too small to want the extra complexities or they are too small to care about going from 20 systems to 3. Businesses like that do exist. There are 18,500 large businesses in the USA. There are 28 MILLION small businesses in the USA. 22 million are single person businesses. Over 50% of the single-person shops are are over 50 yrs old. Doubt most of them will deploy containers, ever. Huge computing organizations will probably find a way to use containers for all the reasons containers earned their hype. As you work down the number of systems/applications needed, the chances for container use are less and less and less, until they make very little sense to a 20 person company who is smart enough NOT to put their customer data in "da cloud." People and companies in "da cloud" have a vested business interest in saying I worry too much and I'm a dinosaur. They want our money. They want to be efficient more than they want to be secure. Fine. I've learned from mistakes made in the past when data I didn't consider sensitive got out AND was abused. I may be old, but I do learn. On 02/19/2018 11:24 AM, Leam Hall via Ale wrote: > On 02/19/2018 10:19 AM, Jerald Sheets via Ale wrote: >> So let me interject into this conversational process a ?norm? that?s >> evolving out in silicon valley. > From DJPfulio at jdpfu.com Mon Feb 19 14:18:47 2018 From: DJPfulio at jdpfu.com (DJ-Pfulio) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:18:47 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1043900b-db48-da80-3ec6-6b0458efda1c@jdpfu.com> Shave off your beard! On 02/19/2018 02:13 PM, Phil Turmel via Ale wrote: > Neither. I like nano. > > On 02/19/2018 09:41 AM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: >> I figure if folks are going to go on ad nauseum about init vs systemd >> again we should probably resurrect this other irresolvable question as well. > _______________________________________________ From questy at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 14:55:11 2018 From: questy at gmail.com (Jerald Sheets) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:55:11 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: <49c23e9a-33a8-b030-0609-071f0038eee7@jdpfu.com> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> <49c23e9a-33a8-b030-0609-071f0038eee7@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: <6448966A-ADE5-4614-94CE-C2661752F56C@gmail.com> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 2:15 PM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > > Looks to me like Silicon Valley is the enemy?. I don't trust most smartphone apps > that want network access or access to contacts or local files or > calendars or ... anything they aren't directly supposed to make use of > either... > I've learned from mistakes made in the past when data I didn't consider > sensitive got out AND was abused. I may be old, but I do learn. Ummm? none of this was about you. I?m telling you what is evolving out of the valley, not what you should do. I?m giving some insight as to what is being baked into standard operating procedures, being included into site reliability engineering, DevOps practices, and security departments and shared among the big company IT and security departments that WILL eventually make its way down to the company on the corner of any appreciable size because of the pervasive nature of actual best practices applied to our discipline. I?m taking my time to let you guys and gals out there know some of the things that are bringing the highest salaries (many in excess of 150k RIGHT HERE in Atlanta), and the technologies and skillsets necessary to get them. As many on this very group will attest, I have assisted some in getting interviews, jobs, training, resources, etc. I?m trying to help as much as I can, and the thrust of what I deal with as part of my job was germane to the direction of the conversation. If you want no part of it, think you know better, have all the answers, etc., that?s fine, but keep your condescending ingratitude to yourself. ?j -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 874 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Mon Feb 19 15:40:01 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:40:01 -0500 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: <20180219122705.26913a02@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> <20180219122705.26913a02@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180219204001.GO31054@shaftnet.org> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:27:05PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > ip link set dev eth0 down > ip link set dev eth0 up > ip link set dev wl01 down > ip link set dev wl01 up Tht restarts the *interface*, not the services that need kicking because their public addresses changed on them. (most stuff doesn't listen for the netlink event that are broadcast when interface properties change. Which is a non-portable linux-ism anyway..) > DIY isn't for everyone. It takes a little extra work up front. It takes > certain skills not everyone has. It invariably runs afoul of what's > popular, because features and brokenness drive new purchases: DIY cuts > into profits. Opportunity cost is also a very real thing. Just be honest about *why* you're DIY'ing,a nd one tends to find they'd rather draw the line differently. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Mon Feb 19 15:54:42 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:54:42 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: <20180219125057.39b1e25d@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> <20180219125057.39b1e25d@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180219205442.GP31054@shaftnet.org> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:50:57PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > One thought. Systemd was not the result of a meritocracy: It was > financed by Redhat, who, as a purveyor of training and consultants, has > everything to gain by a universally more complex GNU/Linux. During the > coup, Redhat must finance the development and troubleshooting of > systemd, and it doesn't come cheap. To paraphrase something you said to me earlier in this thread, your opinions (and those of others!) don't count as facts. So, respectfully, [citations needed]. Also, you forget that in a meritocracy, those who do the actual work get to determine the future. The systemd authors (including many not actually paid by redhat) put the work in. Nobody else has. Well, except arguably for Devuan -- they at least put their money where their mouth was and forked Debian. Unfortunately they haven't actually put in any effort where it actually matters; that is working with the various upstreams to maintain and support the non-systemd codepaths that were barely functional before systemd even came along. Ironically, for a distro forked to "maintain init system freedom", they actually provide *less* choice than what they forked from. Their sole differentiating feature is the outright removal of libsystemd.so from filesystems; the "alternative" inits that are the raison d'etre for Devuan aren't supported any better there than upstream Debian. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From slitt at troubleshooters.com Mon Feb 19 16:28:54 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:28:54 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180219162854.16f77ddc@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:41:43 +0000 "Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale" wrote: > I figure if folks are going to go on ad nauseum about init vs systemd > again False dilemma alert and misleading terminology alert: "Init" is a generic term for, generally speaking but open to modification, the first process run by the kernel plus the system to configure and run all the daemons. Systemd is an init (plus some other stuff), so this might as well say "systemd vs systemd". Before the invention of Upstart, >90% of all Linux machines used sysvinit for their init system, so some people just referred to it as "init". Some still do, but today such reference is misleading. Assuming by "init" you meant "sysvinit", the system with /etc/inittab and tweaked-comment shellscripts in /etc/rc.d/init.d that can be symlinked in runlevels such as /etc/rc.d/rc5.d, "init vs systemd" implies a false choice that precludes runit, s6, Epoch, busybox init, as well as some excellent but less popular inits. This matters. The justification of creating and force-feeding systemd always boiled down to "it's better than sysvinit or Upstart!" Even if I believed that assertion, so what: I'm stronger than Stephen Hawking and smarter than Mike Tyson. Use of "init" to mean something to compare to systemd, or comparing sysvinit to systemd, are both fallacies used and useful in justifying systemd's existence and, shall we say, "marketing methods". Let's stick to the real costs and benefits of each init system. SteveT From philip at turmel.org Mon Feb 19 16:43:57 2018 From: philip at turmel.org (Phil Turmel) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:43:57 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: <1043900b-db48-da80-3ec6-6b0458efda1c@jdpfu.com> References: <1043900b-db48-da80-3ec6-6b0458efda1c@jdpfu.com> Message-ID: I knew that'd get a rise of you. I'm a heretic. On 02/19/2018 02:18 PM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > Shave off your beard! > > On 02/19/2018 02:13 PM, Phil Turmel via Ale wrote: >> Neither. I like nano. >> >> On 02/19/2018 09:41 AM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: >>> I figure if folks are going to go on ad nauseum about init vs systemd >>> again we should probably resurrect this other irresolvable question as well. From joey at joeykelly.net Mon Feb 19 19:15:06 2018 From: joey at joeykelly.net (Joey Kelly) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 18:15:06 -0600 Subject: [ale] [systemd] Boot speed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52384530.Uq7AaPnMIU@elisha.atlnet> On Saturday, February 17, 2018 09:23:52 AM Damon L. Chesser via Ale wrote: > As a professional, I am not. Like the man said, if you need uptime, you > designed it wrong. As a "hobbyist", "enthusiast", or just plain user, I > also don't care about uptime. go ahead. Reboot your home box. Even > shut it down when you are not using it and save a few hundred dollars a > year. > > > > > > wrote: > > > > I don't see boot speed as a game changer for systemd, even if it is a > > lot faster. If you're booting your desktop then you're probably > > already used to "push the power button, hit the head, grab some > > coffee" routine. If you system isn't up by then maybe there's an > > issue. What's all this "shut down a computer" nonsense? Mine only shuts off in the rare even the power goes off longer than my UPS stays up. -- Joey Kelly Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant http://joeykelly.net 504-239-6550 From slitt at troubleshooters.com Mon Feb 19 19:15:31 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 19:15:31 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: <20180219205442.GP31054@shaftnet.org> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> <20180219125057.39b1e25d@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219205442.GP31054@shaftnet.org> Message-ID: <20180219191531.12631550@mydesk.domain.cxm> On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:54:42 -0500 Solomon Peachy wrote: > On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 12:50:57PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > > One thought. Systemd was not the result of a meritocracy: It was > > financed by Redhat, who, as a purveyor of training and consultants, > > has everything to gain by a universally more complex GNU/Linux. > > During the coup, Redhat must finance the development and > > troubleshooting of systemd, and it doesn't come cheap. > > To paraphrase something you said to me earlier in this thread, your > opinions (and those of others!) don't count as facts. > > So, respectfully, [citations needed]. Alright, I'll withdraw the sentence about meritocracy. It's a no-op anyway. Every single other thing in my paragraph is a known fact easily supportable by a quick internet search. [snip S.Peachy meritocracy clause: If I don't talk about it, I'm not responding to your taking about it > those who do the actual work > get to determine the future. Same exact thing can be said of dictators and clever criminals. And that future is often short term. > The systemd authors (including many not > actually paid by redhat) put the work in. Nobody else has. Of course not. Who would complexify an OS to add a few features, when those features' benefits could have been added much more simply and modularly. > Well, except arguably for Devuan -- they at least put their money > where their mouth was and forked Debian. Unfortunately they haven't > actually put in any effort where it actually matters; that is working > with the various upstreams to maintain and support the non-systemd > codepaths that were barely functional before systemd even came along. Yeah, well, they didn't have Redhat's billions behind them when they negotiated with the upstreams. They had day jobs, many of which were negatively impacted by systemd. But anyway, the word "codepaths" isn't defined in dictionary.com, the Urban Dictionary, acronymfinder.com, or a generic web search, so unless by "codepaths" you mean the sysvinit start and stop scripts, I doubt there was anything barely functional pre-systemd, and once again, there were and are plenty of init systems that don't use those start and stop scripts. > > Ironically, for a distro forked to "maintain init system freedom", > they actually provide *less* choice than what they forked from. The preceding is simply not true. You can easily run any init system *except* systemd on Devuan. Running runit, s6, or Epoch on Debian is crazily difficult: I know, I've done it. > Their sole differentiating feature is the outright removal of > libsystemd.so from filesystems; the "alternative" inits that are the > raison d'etre for Devuan aren't supported any better there than > upstream Debian. Simply not true. Devuan removes the tight weldings making it insanely difficult to lay down an alternative init, so you can install pretty much any simple init system including runit, s6, Epoch, or BusyBox init. Meanwhile, I wouldn't want to bet my business plan on Debian keeping their sysvinit package and their OpenRC package functional as time goes on. SteveT From slitt at troubleshooters.com Mon Feb 19 19:30:52 2018 From: slitt at troubleshooters.com (Steve Litt) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 19:30:52 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: <20180219162854.16f77ddc@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20180219162854.16f77ddc@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180219193052.124998a3@mydesk.domain.cxm> Wow, I got kind of nasty and personal in my response. Jeffrey, I'm sorry. I hereby retract everything that implied Jeffrey was trying to fool anyone or act as an agent for systemd. Basically, all I *should* have said was that using the word "init" for any specific init system in 2018 causes confusion, and comparing sysvinit to systemd, in the absence of all the other fine init systems out there, is misleading. And I should have also said to everyone, which I didn't, is that when you see a comparison between systemd and sysvinit in absence of all the other init systems, your first thought should be "OK, how bout runit, s6, some of the minor daemontools-inspired inits, or OpenRC, or even BusyBox init in special cases. SteveT On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:28:54 -0500 Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:41:43 +0000 > "Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale" wrote: > > > I figure if folks are going to go on ad nauseum about init vs > > systemd again > > False dilemma alert and misleading terminology alert: > > "Init" is a generic term for, generally speaking but open to > modification, the first process run by the kernel plus the system to > configure and run all the daemons. Systemd is an init (plus some other > stuff), so this might as well say "systemd vs systemd". > > Before the invention of Upstart, >90% of all Linux machines used > sysvinit for their init system, so some people just referred to it as > "init". Some still do, but today such reference is misleading. > > Assuming by "init" you meant "sysvinit", the system with /etc/inittab > and tweaked-comment shellscripts in /etc/rc.d/init.d that can be > symlinked in runlevels such as /etc/rc.d/rc5.d, "init vs systemd" > implies a false choice that precludes runit, s6, Epoch, busybox init, > as well as some excellent but less popular inits. > > This matters. The justification of creating and force-feeding systemd > always boiled down to "it's better than sysvinit or Upstart!" Even if > I believed that assertion, so what: I'm stronger than Stephen Hawking > and smarter than Mike Tyson. > > Use of "init" to mean something to compare to systemd, or comparing > sysvinit to systemd, are both fallacies used and useful in justifying > systemd's existence and, shall we say, "marketing methods". Let's > stick to the real costs and benefits of each init system. > > SteveT > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From oloryn at benshome.net Tue Feb 20 03:27:17 2018 From: oloryn at benshome.net (Ben Coleman) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 03:27:17 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/16/2018 10:06 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: > I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway daily > reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. > > Anyone know what happened? Maybe even the spammers don't like a Linux mailing list that has been reduced to a pro/anti systemd argument list? Ben -- Ben Coleman oloryn at benshome.net | For the wise man, doing right trumps http://oloryn.benshome.net/ | looking right. For the fool, looking Amateur Radio NJ8J | right trumps doing right. From jim.kinney at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 07:23:48 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 07:23:48 -0500 Subject: [ale] Where's all the SPAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57E20EBA-7706-4D3B-97BE-4CA68FD6FFE5@gmail.com> Bwahahahaha!!!!! Or maybe their poorly supported sysV system got taken down with a meltdown attack. Bwahahaha!!!!! Or they accidentally rebooted and systemd is hung mounting a nfs filesystem before networking is up. Bwahahaha!!!!! On February 20, 2018 3:27:17 AM EST, Ben Coleman via Ale wrote: >On 2/16/2018 10:06 AM, DJ-Pfulio via Ale wrote: >> I'm used to seeing a few hundred spam emails in the email gateway >daily >> reports. They've effectively gone to zero this week. >> >> Anyone know what happened? > >Maybe even the spammers don't like a Linux mailing list that has been >reduced to a pro/anti systemd argument list? > >Ben >-- >Ben Coleman oloryn at benshome.net | For the wise man, doing right trumps >http://oloryn.benshome.net/ | looking right. For the fool, looking >Amateur Radio NJ8J | right trumps doing right. >_______________________________________________ >Ale mailing list >Ale at ale.org >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pizza at shaftnet.org Tue Feb 20 10:22:40 2018 From: pizza at shaftnet.org (Solomon Peachy) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:22:40 -0500 Subject: [ale] Gearing up for the future (wuz: boot speed, systemd, vi vs emacs, etc) In-Reply-To: <20180219191531.12631550@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20180217143331.GG31054@shaftnet.org> <20180218154123.67eb8818@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219025730.GB27031@shaftnet.org> <20180219125057.39b1e25d@mydesk.domain.cxm> <20180219205442.GP31054@shaftnet.org> <20180219191531.12631550@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180220152240.GK31918@shaftnet.org> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 07:15:31PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > Yeah, well, they didn't have Redhat's billions behind them when they > negotiated with the upstreams. They had day jobs, many of which were They didn't negotiate squat. They stomped off in a huff, and haven't so much as attempted to submit a single patch to anything. Least of all Debian. Which isn't exactly rolling around in the cash either. > negatively impacted by systemd. But anyway, the word "codepaths" isn't > defined in dictionary.com, the Urban Dictionary, acronymfinder.com, > or a generic web search, so unless by "codepaths" you mean the sysvinit > start and stop scripts, I doubt there was anything barely functional > pre-systemd, and once again, there were and are plenty of init systems > that don't use those start and stop scripts. And are you seriously pulling out dictionary definitions? What do you think this is, a high school debate? I suggest you look up the definition of "jargon". Any half-competent software developer will know exactly what that 'codepaths' means. But I digress -- What I'm referring to has zero to do with "init scripts"; instead I'm referring to logind vs Consolekit for managing desktop user sessions, that is one of "embrace extend extinguish" that the "systemd cabal" is repeatedly accused of doing. ConsoleKit is a festering pile of swill, was one hack piled on top of another (with unique per-distro and desktop environment code, I might add), and those depending on it (gnome and kde, plus nearly every distro of note) dropped it like a hot potato because it was so awful and its promise rewrite (aka ConsoleKit2) had yet to materialize. It's telling that current development efforts are along the lines of re-implenenting logind's dbus api (eg elogind or logind-shim) with varying amounts of functionality rather than attempting to fix ConsoleKit. (And for all of Devuan's hand waving about "init freedom" the actual work on the likes of elogind, eudev, and whatnot are being done by Gentoo developers who are doing actually useful work. Devuan just got smacked for implying otherwise, BTW. > The preceding is simply not true. You can easily run any init system > *except* systemd on Devuan. Running runit, s6, or Epoch on Debian is > crazily difficult: I know, I've done it. How does Devuan make using runint, s6, or epoch any easier over Debian? (Granted, a week ago they modified d-i to allow for more selections at installation time, but that's not in the wild yet.) > Simply not true. Devuan removes the tight weldings making it insanely > difficult to lay down an alternative init, so you can install pretty > much any simple init system including runit, s6, Epoch, or BusyBox init. > Meanwhile, I wouldn't want to bet my business plan on Debian keeping > their sysvinit package and their OpenRC package functional as time goes > on. What weldings are these? Note that Devuan is 99.44% Debian; as I write this there are only 184 (source) packages different out of 28,036. Under the hood, the overwhelming majority of the changes consisted of branding (Debian->Devuan) and removing any vistages of systemd, eg compile-time options to disable systemd integration, unit files, and so forth. Unless by "Weldings" you're referring to Debian's famous attention to detail where they try to ensure every option is fully supported throughout the entire system (including across upgrades). Relaxing quality standards isn't exactly something to brag about. - Solomon -- Solomon Peachy pizza at shaftnet dot org Coconut Creek, FL ^^ (email/xmpp) ^^ Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: not available URL: From neal at mnopltd.com Wed Feb 21 11:51:58 2018 From: neal at mnopltd.com (Neal Rhodes) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:51:58 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? Message-ID: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> So our church really needs to build and maintain maybe 20-30 email lists for youth group, bluegrass group, bell choir, chancel choir, study group 1, 3, 4, 5, mens group, soundTech group, etc. So anyone can email to the group name and not keep up with addresses. This shouldn't be hard. Church uses Gmail for Business. We tried setting up a gmail address, and enabling Forwarding, and put in 12 address. BUT Gmail only allows 2 out of the 12 to be "in use" at any time. So it looks like that's a flop. And it's kinda a PIA, as every address you put in, Gmail sends them an email and they have to opt-in. With some user populations, that ain't never going to happen. I've setup forwarding within my company Godaddy account, but that's not easy enough to delegate to anyone. Ideally, it should: - be useable by multiple people, like a handful - verify addresses are good via STMP but not require an opt-in - forward such that replies also get forwarded. - I don't want to host this somewhere and have to support it forever Thoughts? MailChimp came to mind, but I thus far have no experience with it. regards, Neal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joey at joeykelly.net Wed Feb 21 12:10:04 2018 From: joey at joeykelly.net (Joey Kelly) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:10:04 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? In-Reply-To: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> References: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> Message-ID: <3918236.8PknrEuk9K@elisha.atlnet> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 11:51:58 AM Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote: > So our church really needs to build and maintain maybe 20-30 email lists > for youth group, bluegrass group, bell choir, chancel choir, study group > 1, 3, 4, 5, mens group, soundTech group, etc. So anyone can email to > the group name and not keep up with addresses. This shouldn't be > hard. I used majordomo for years, and pondered the rewrite for my new server, but chose mlmmj instead. I can't stand mailman, but it's obviously quite popular. Vendor-provided web-based services? No clue, I don't use those. -- Joey Kelly Minister of the Gospel and Linux Consultant http://joeykelly.net 504-239-6550 From kwc at TheWorld.com Wed Feb 21 12:12:26 2018 From: kwc at TheWorld.com (Ken Cochran) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:12:26 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? In-Reply-To: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> References: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> Message-ID: <201802211712.w1LHCQT1005394@shell02.TheWorld.com> Church where I play in orchestra & other churches use something called "Planning Center." Can't say I'm a fan though - html-only emails come from it & some 900+ line buncha html/script for a 2-3 line actual text message/announcement. Makes me Glad to have html NOT enabled in email. They also use Google Groups but I dunno specifics -k > To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:51:58 -0500 > Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding > From: Neal Rhodes via Ale > Reply-To: Neal Rhodes , > Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts > > So our church really needs to build and maintain maybe 20-30 email lists > for youth group, bluegrass group, bell choir, chancel choir, study group > 1, 3, 4, 5, mens group, soundTech group, etc. So anyone can email to > the group name and not keep up with addresses. This shouldn't be > hard. > > Church uses Gmail for Business. We tried setting up a gmail address, > and enabling Forwarding, and put in 12 address. BUT Gmail only allows 2 > out of the 12 to be "in use" at any time. So it looks like that's a > flop. And it's kinda a PIA, as every address you put in, Gmail sends > them an email and they have to opt-in. With some user populations, > that ain't never going to happen. > > I've setup forwarding within my company Godaddy account, but that's not > easy enough to delegate to anyone. > > Ideally, it should: > > - be useable by multiple people, like a handful > - verify addresses are good via STMP but not require an opt-in > - forward such that replies also get forwarded. > - I don't want to host this somewhere and have to support it > forever > > Thoughts? MailChimp came to mind, but I thus far have no experience > with it. > > regards, > > Neal From brent at laminack.com Wed Feb 21 13:18:47 2018 From: brent at laminack.com (Brent Laminack) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:18:47 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? Message-ID: Neal, The classic open-source answers would be: MajorDomo, which currently looks defunkt Gnu Mailman at: http://www.list.org/ and PHPList at: https://www.phplist.org/ but these are you-support-it kinda things for commercial use, there's: Mobilize: https://mobilize.io/ which claims to have a free tier, but gets pricey fast after that. or PHPList has a commercial conjugate twin at: https://www.phplist.com Pricing looks pretty reasonable. I'd probably start there. Brent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ALE at MaestroIT.com Wed Feb 21 13:37:56 2018 From: ALE at MaestroIT.com (Alan Dobkin) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:37:56 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? In-Reply-To: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> References: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> Message-ID: Neal, assuming you are talking about forwarding only (no mailboxes or archives) with a reasonable volume and limited/occasional support, I can host this for you on my company' servers for $5 per month ($60 annually). Feel free to contact me directly if you're interested. Alan On 2/21/2018 11:51 AM, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote: > So our church really needs to build and maintain maybe 20-30 email > lists for youth group, bluegrass group, bell choir, chancel choir, > study group 1, 3, 4, 5, mens group, soundTech group, etc.??? So anyone > can email to the group name and not keep up with addresses.?? This > shouldn't be hard. > > Church uses Gmail for Business.??? We tried setting up a gmail > address, and enabling Forwarding, and put in 12 address. BUT Gmail > only allows 2 out of the 12 to be "in use" at any time.??? So it looks > like that's a flop.???? And it's kinda a PIA, as every address you put > in, Gmail sends them an email and they have to opt-in.???? With some > user populations, that ain't never going to happen. > > I've setup forwarding within my company Godaddy account, but that's > not easy enough to delegate to anyone. > > Ideally, it should: > > - be useable by multiple people, like a handful > - verify addresses are good via STMP but not require an opt-in > - forward such that replies also get forwarded. > - I don't want to host this somewhere and have to support it forever > > Thoughts?? MailChimp came to mind, but I thus far have no experience > with it. > > regards, > > > Neal > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harold.bieber at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 16:02:59 2018 From: harold.bieber at gmail.com (Harold Bieber) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:02:59 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? In-Reply-To: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> References: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> Message-ID: If they use Gmail for business, why not use google groups? bellchoir at mychurch.org, then in the members add the 10 or so people as members. Anything sent to bellchoir at mychurch.org will be mailed directly to the members of the group, and as a bonus, the group will keep the archive of the message. Let me know if you need further help with this. We do it here at the school I work at, and there are some cool google admin command line tools so you can just add people to the group without waiting for them to opt-in Harold On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 11:51 AM, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote: > So our church really needs to build and maintain maybe 20-30 email lists > for youth group, bluegrass group, bell choir, chancel choir, study group 1, > 3, 4, 5, mens group, soundTech group, etc. So anyone can email to the > group name and not keep up with addresses. This shouldn't be hard. > > Church uses Gmail for Business. We tried setting up a gmail address, > and enabling Forwarding, and put in 12 address. BUT Gmail only allows 2 out > of the 12 to be "in use" at any time. So it looks like that's a > flop. And it's kinda a PIA, as every address you put in, Gmail sends > them an email and they have to opt-in. With some user populations, that > ain't never going to happen. > > I've setup forwarding within my company Godaddy account, but that's not > easy enough to delegate to anyone. > > Ideally, it should: > > - be useable by multiple people, like a handful > - verify addresses are good via STMP but not require an opt-in > - forward such that replies also get forwarded. > - I don't want to host this somewhere and have to support it forever > > Thoughts? MailChimp came to mind, but I thus far have no experience with > it. > > regards, > > > Neal > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From warlord at MIT.EDU Thu Feb 22 10:23:13 2018 From: warlord at MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 10:23:13 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? In-Reply-To: (Brent Laminack via Ale's message of "Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:18:47 -0500") References: Message-ID: Hi, Brent Laminack via Ale writes: > Neal, > > The classic open-source answers would be: > MajorDomo, which currently looks defunkt > Gnu Mailman at: http://www.list.org/ > and PHPList at: https://www.phplist.org/ > but these are you-support-it kinda things > for commercial use, there's: Mobilize: https://mobilize.io/ > which claims to have a free tier, but gets pricey fast after that. > or PHPList has a commercial conjugate twin at: https://www.phplist.com > Pricing looks pretty reasonable. I'd probably start there. This list is run by mailman. I manage a bunch of mailman lists for gnucash.org. YMMV. > Brent -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warlord at MIT.EDU PGP key available From ale_nospam at fayettedigital.com Thu Feb 22 11:15:40 2018 From: ale_nospam at fayettedigital.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 11:15:40 -0500 Subject: [ale] slightly OT: what would you use to manage email forwarding lists for a non-profit? In-Reply-To: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> References: <1519231918.23706.278.camel@t4.mnopltd.com> Message-ID: Look at Mailjet, Mailgun or Mailchimp.? All have free versions. Mailgun gives you 10,000 free emails a month.? I don't know about Mailchimp. I think Mailjet gives you 5,000 free, but don't quote me on that. Jim. On 02/21/2018 11:51 AM, Neal Rhodes via Ale wrote: > So our church really needs to build and maintain maybe 20-30 email > lists for youth group, bluegrass group, bell choir, chancel choir, > study group 1, 3, 4, 5, mens group, soundTech group, etc.??? So anyone > can email to the group name and not keep up with addresses.?? This > shouldn't be hard. > > Church uses Gmail for Business.??? We tried setting up a gmail > address, and enabling Forwarding, and put in 12 address. BUT Gmail > only allows 2 out of the 12 to be "in use" at any time.??? So it looks > like that's a flop.???? And it's kinda a PIA, as every address you put > in, Gmail sends them an email and they have to opt-in.???? With some > user populations, that ain't never going to happen. > > I've setup forwarding within my company Godaddy account, but that's > not easy enough to delegate to anyone. > > Ideally, it should: > > - be useable by multiple people, like a handful > - verify addresses are good via STMP but not require an opt-in > - forward such that replies also get forwarded. > - I don't want to host this somewhere and have to support it forever > > Thoughts?? MailChimp came to mind, but I thus far have no experience > with it. > > regards, > > > Neal > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo From eholcroft at mkainc.com Thu Feb 22 12:49:33 2018 From: eholcroft at mkainc.com (Edward O. Holcroft) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:49:33 -0500 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs Message-ID: Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and it bounced. This is the mail system at host www.ale.org. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system : mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself Final-Recipient: rfc822; ale-jobs at mail.ale.org Original-Recipient: rfc822;ale-jobs at mail.ale.org Action: failed Status: 5.4.6 Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself _________________________________________ *Edward O. Holcroft* IT Operations Manager *Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc.* Construction Consultants & Engineers 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 Johns Creek, GA 30097 *O* 770.446.9606 | *F* 770.446.9612 | *C* 770.630.0949 | eholcroft at mkainc.com www.mkainc.com -- MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately then delete it - you should not copy or use it for any purpose or disclose its content to any other person. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments for viruses. Any unauthorized use or interception of this e-mail is illegal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leamhall at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 13:00:49 2018 From: leamhall at gmail.com (Leam Hall) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:00:49 -0500 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7580cf3b-f118-6cbd-dd24-ec8b9dd6aa90@gmail.com> It's probably using systemd. :P On 02/22/2018 12:49 PM, Edward O. Holcroft via Ale wrote: > Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and it > bounced. > From JLightner at dsservices.com Thu Feb 22 13:03:18 2018 From: JLightner at dsservices.com (Lightner, Jeffrey) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:03:18 +0000 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The last time I got an email from Ale Jobs was a test back on 7-Nov-2017. The last time I tried to post something to Ale Jobs was on 23-Jan-2018 and I got a message saying it was waiting for moderator approval. Any time I?ve gotten that such a message I give up. Despite the ?moderator? mentioned in the return, I?ve never yet seen any message with a response like that either get forwarded to the list or an explanation of why it was denied. It makes me think no one actually gets notifications to moderate emails. From: Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of Edward O. Holcroft via Ale Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:50 PM To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and it bounced. This is the mail system at host www.ale.org. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system >: mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself Final-Recipient: rfc822; ale-jobs at mail.ale.org Original-Recipient: rfc822;ale-jobs at mail.ale.org Action: failed Status: 5.4.6 Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself _________________________________________ Edward O. Holcroft IT Operations Manager Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc. Construction Consultants & Engineers 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 Johns Creek, GA 30097 O 770.446.9606 | F 770.446.9612 | C 770.630.0949 | eholcroft at mkainc.com www.mkainc.com MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately then delete it - you should not copy or use it for any purpose or disclose its content to any other person. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments for viruses. Any unauthorized use or interception of this e-mail is illegal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From terrorpup at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 13:06:06 2018 From: terrorpup at gmail.com (Chuck Payne) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:06:06 -0500 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you need a mderator, I don't mind helping. On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale wrote: > The last time I got an email from Ale Jobs was a test back on 7-Nov-2017. > > > > The last time I tried to post something to Ale Jobs was on 23-Jan-2018 and > I got a message saying it was waiting for moderator approval. > > > > Any time I?ve gotten that such a message I give up. Despite the > ?moderator? mentioned in the return, I?ve never yet seen any message with a > response like that either get forwarded to the list or an explanation of > why it was denied. It makes me think no one actually gets notifications to > moderate emails. > > > > > > > > *From:* Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] *On Behalf Of *Edward O. > Holcroft via Ale > *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:50 PM > *To:* Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! > *Subject:* [ale] OT ALE jobs > > > > Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and it > bounced. > > > > > > This is the mail system at host www.ale.org. > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not > > be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > delete your own text from the attached returned message. > > > > The mail system > > > > : mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > > Original-Recipient: rfc822;ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > > Action: failed > > Status: 5.4.6 > > Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > *Edward O. Holcroft* > IT Operations Manager > > *Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc.* > Construction Consultants & Engineers > 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 > Johns Creek, GA 30097 > > *O* 770.446.9606 <(770)%20446-9606> | *F* 770.446.9612 > <(770)%20446-9612> | *C* 770.630.0949 <(770)%20630-0949> | > eholcroft at mkainc.com > > www.mkainc.com > > > MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This > message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately then delete it - you should > not copy or use it for any purpose or disclose its content to any other > person. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this > message and any attachments for viruses. Any unauthorized use or > interception of this e-mail is illegal. > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > -- Terror PUP a.k.a Chuck "PUP" Payne ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein Register Linux Userid: 155363 Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JLightner at dsservices.com Thu Feb 22 13:19:06 2018 From: JLightner at dsservices.com (Lightner, Jeffrey) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:19:06 +0000 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don?t know about that. The mail lists were migrated last year and the 07-Nov-2017 email from Jim Kinney said there were issues with SPF and suggested they had just cleared it from spam mail lists. Today I realize my reply in thread that day was also bounced ?waiting for moderator approval? like my later 23-Jan-2018. As noted the test Jim sent on 07-Nov is the last one I actually got FROM ale-jobs. However, I do still get monthly reminders for both lists showing my login credentials. That doesn?t come from ale-jobs itself though. Jeffrey C. Lightner Sr. UNIX/Linux Administrator DS Services of America, Inc. 2300 Windy Ridge Pkwy Suite 600 N Atlanta, GA 30339-8461 P: 678-486-3516 C: 678-772-0018 F: 678-460-3603 E: jlightner at dsservices.com From: Chuck Payne [mailto:terrorpup at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:06 PM To: Lightner, Jeffrey; Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts Cc: Edward O. Holcroft Subject: Re: [ale] OT ALE jobs If you need a mderator, I don't mind helping. On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale > wrote: The last time I got an email from Ale Jobs was a test back on 7-Nov-2017. The last time I tried to post something to Ale Jobs was on 23-Jan-2018 and I got a message saying it was waiting for moderator approval. Any time I?ve gotten that such a message I give up. Despite the ?moderator? mentioned in the return, I?ve never yet seen any message with a response like that either get forwarded to the list or an explanation of why it was denied. It makes me think no one actually gets notifications to moderate emails. From: Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of Edward O. Holcroft via Ale Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:50 PM To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and it bounced. This is the mail system at host www.ale.org. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. The mail system >: mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself Final-Recipient: rfc822; ale-jobs at mail.ale.org Original-Recipient: rfc822;ale-jobs at mail.ale.org Action: failed Status: 5.4.6 Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself _________________________________________ Edward O. Holcroft IT Operations Manager Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc. Construction Consultants & Engineers 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 Johns Creek, GA 30097 O 770.446.9606 | F 770.446.9612 | C 770.630.0949 | eholcroft at mkainc.com www.mkainc.com MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately then delete it - you should not copy or use it for any purpose or disclose its content to any other person. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments for viruses. Any unauthorized use or interception of this e-mail is illegal. _______________________________________________ Ale mailing list Ale at ale.org http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Terror PUP a.k.a Chuck "PUP" Payne ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein Register Linux Userid: 155363 Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From terrorpup at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 13:27:06 2018 From: terrorpup at gmail.com (Chuck Payne) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:27:06 -0500 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, I don't mind helping just let me know. On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Lightner, Jeffrey wrote: > I don?t know about that. The mail lists were migrated last year and the > 07-Nov-2017 email from Jim Kinney said there were issues with SPF and > suggested they had just cleared it from spam mail lists. Today I realize > my reply in thread that day was also bounced ?waiting for moderator > approval? like my later 23-Jan-2018. As noted the test Jim sent on > 07-Nov is the last one I actually got FROM ale-jobs. > > > > However, I do still get monthly reminders for both lists showing my login > credentials. That doesn?t come from ale-jobs itself though. > > > > *Jeffrey C. Lightner* > > *Sr. UNIX/Linux Administrator* > > > > DS Services of America, Inc. > > 2300 Windy Ridge Pkwy > > > Suite *600 > > N* > > Atlanta, GA 30339-8461 > > > > P: *678-486-3516 <(678)%20486-3516>* > > C: *678-772-0018 <(678)%20772-0018>* > > F: *678-460-3603 <(678)%20460-3603>* > > E: *jlightner at dsservices.com* > > > > *From:* Chuck Payne [mailto:terrorpup at gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:06 PM > *To:* Lightner, Jeffrey; Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts > *Cc:* Edward O. Holcroft > *Subject:* Re: [ale] OT ALE jobs > > > > If you need a mderator, I don't mind helping. > > > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale > wrote: > > The last time I got an email from Ale Jobs was a test back on 7-Nov-2017. > > > > The last time I tried to post something to Ale Jobs was on 23-Jan-2018 and > I got a message saying it was waiting for moderator approval. > > > > Any time I?ve gotten that such a message I give up. Despite the > ?moderator? mentioned in the return, I?ve never yet seen any message with a > response like that either get forwarded to the list or an explanation of > why it was denied. It makes me think no one actually gets notifications to > moderate emails. > > > > > > > > *From:* Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] *On Behalf Of *Edward O. > Holcroft via Ale > *Sent:* Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:50 PM > *To:* Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! > *Subject:* [ale] OT ALE jobs > > > > Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and it > bounced. > > > > > > This is the mail system at host www.ale.org. > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not > > be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > delete your own text from the attached returned message. > > > > The mail system > > > > : mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > > Original-Recipient: rfc822;ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > > Action: failed > > Status: 5.4.6 > > Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > *Edward O. Holcroft* > IT Operations Manager > > *Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc.* > Construction Consultants & Engineers > 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 > > Johns Creek, GA 30097 > > *O* 770.446.9606 <(770)%20446-9606> | *F* 770.446.9612 > <(770)%20446-9612> | *C* 770.630.0949 <(770)%20630-0949> | > eholcroft at mkainc.com > > www.mkainc.com > > > MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This > message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately then delete it - you should > not copy or use it for any purpose or disclose its content to any other > person. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this > message and any attachments for viruses. Any unauthorized use or > interception of this e-mail is illegal. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > > > -- > > Terror PUP a.k.a > Chuck "PUP" Payne > ----------------------------------------- > Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. > ----------------------------------------- > openSUSE -- Terrorpup > openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member > skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup > freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein > Register Linux Userid: 155363 > > Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to > package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio > a try. > -- Terror PUP a.k.a Chuck "PUP" Payne ----------------------------------------- Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. ----------------------------------------- openSUSE -- Terrorpup openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein Register Linux Userid: 155363 Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jim.kinney at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 13:51:11 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:51:11 -0500 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1519325471.3464.8.camel@gmail.com> Robert mentioned earlier this week that the ale-jobs list is offline. He will fix it asap. If there are jobs people have in the interim, please post to the ale list. Job notices are always welcome! mailman doesn't like being in a hosted environment with multiple domains in email service. So ale server runs as a vm. On Thu, 2018-02-22 at 13:27 -0500, Chuck Payne via Ale wrote: > Ok, I don't mind helping just let me know. > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Lightner, Jeffrey ces.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don?t know about that. The mail lists were migrated last year > > and the 07-Nov-2017 email from Jim Kinney said there were issues > > with SPF and suggested they > > had just cleared it from spam mail lists. Today I realize my > > reply in thread that day was also bounced ?waiting for moderator > > approval? like my later 23-Jan-2018. As noted the test Jim sent > > on 07-Nov is the last one I actually got FROM ale-jobs. > > > > > > > > > > However, I do still get monthly reminders for both lists showing my > > login credentials. That doesn?t come from ale-jobs itself though. > > > > > > > > Jeffrey C. Lightner > > > > Sr. UNIX/Linux Administrator > > > > > > > > DS Services of America, Inc. > > > > 2300 Windy Ridge Pkwy > > > > Suite > > 600 N > > > > Atlanta, GA 30339-8461 > > > > > > > > P: > > 678-486-3516 > > > > C: > > 678-772-0018 > > > > F: > > 678-460-3603 > > > > E: > > jlightner at dsservices.com > > > > > > > > From: Chuck Payne [mailto:terrorpup at gmail.com] > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:06 PM > > > > To: Lightner, Jeffrey; Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts > > > > Cc: Edward O. Holcroft > > > > Subject: Re: [ale] OT ALE jobs > > > > > > > > If you need a mderator, I don't mind helping. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale > .org> wrote: > > > > > > The last time I got an email from Ale Jobs was a test back on 7- > > Nov-2017. > > > > The last time I tried to post something to Ale Jobs was on 23-Jan- > > 2018 and I got a message saying > > it was waiting for moderator approval. > > > > Any time I?ve gotten that such a message I give up. Despite the > > ?moderator? mentioned in the return, > > I?ve never yet seen any message with a response like that either > > get forwarded to the list or an explanation of why it was denied. > > It makes me think no one actually gets notifications to moderate > > emails. > > > > > > > > From: Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] > > On Behalf Of Edward O. Holcroft via Ale > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:50 PM > > > > To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! > > > > Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs > > > > > > > > > > > > Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and > > it bounced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the mail system at host > > www.ale.org. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not > > > > > > be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. > > > > > > > > > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > > > > > delete your own text from the attached returned message. > > > > > > > > > > > > The mail system > > > > > > > > > > > > : mail for > > mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > > > > > > > > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; > > ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > > > > > > Original-Recipient: > > rfc822;ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > > > > > > Action: failed > > > > > > Status: 5.4.6 > > > > > > Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for > > mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > Edward O. Holcroft > > > > IT Operations Manager > > > > > > > > Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc. > > > > Construction Consultants & Engineers > > > > 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 > > > > Johns Creek, GA 30097 > > > > > > > > O 770.446.9606 | F 770.446.9612 > > | C 770.630.0949 | > > eholcroft at mkainc.com > > > > > > > > www.mkainc.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: > > This message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not > > the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately > > then delete it - you should not copy or use it for any purpose or > > disclose its content to any other person. Internet communications > > are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments > > for viruses. Any unauthorized use or interception of this e-mail > > is illegal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Ale mailing list > > > > Ale at ale.org > > > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > > > > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > > > > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Terror PUP a.k.a > > > > Chuck "PUP" Payne > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. > > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > > openSUSE -- Terrorpup > > > > openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member > > > > skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup > > > > freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein > > > > Register Linux Userid: 155363 > > > > > > > > Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you > > want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. > > Give SUSE Studio a try. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- James P. Kinney III Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog. - Speech 11/23/1900 Mark Twain http://heretothereideas.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From questy at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 14:07:39 2018 From: questy at gmail.com (Jerald Sheets) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:07:39 -0500 Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There has been np mail to the list for quite some time. The existing moderator is underemployed. We just need mails to actually come in to approve or reject them. ?j > On Feb 22, 2018, at 1:06 PM, Chuck Payne via Ale wrote: > > If you need a mderator, I don't mind helping. > > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 1:03 PM, Lightner, Jeffrey via Ale > wrote: > The last time I got an email from Ale Jobs was a test back on 7-Nov-2017. > > > > The last time I tried to post something to Ale Jobs was on 23-Jan-2018 and I got a message saying it was waiting for moderator approval. > > > > Any time I?ve gotten that such a message I give up. Despite the ?moderator? mentioned in the return, I?ve never yet seen any message with a response like that either get forwarded to the list or an explanation of why it was denied. It makes me think no one actually gets notifications to moderate emails. > > > > > > > > From: Ale [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org ] On Behalf Of Edward O. Holcroft via Ale > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:50 PM > To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux! > Subject: [ale] OT ALE jobs > > > > Does the ALE jobs list still work? I just tried to post a job and it bounced. > > > > > > This is the mail system at host www.ale.org . > > > > I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not > > be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. > > > > For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster. > > > > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can > > delete your own text from the attached returned message. > > > > The mail system > > > > >: mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > Original-Recipient: rfc822;ale-jobs at mail.ale.org > Action: failed > > Status: 5.4.6 > > Diagnostic-Code: X-Postfix; mail for mail.ale.org loops back to myself > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > Edward O. Holcroft > IT Operations Manager > > Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc. > Construction Consultants & Engineers > 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 > Johns Creek, GA 30097 > > O 770.446.9606 | F 770.446.9612 | C 770.630.0949 | eholcroft at mkainc.com > > www.mkainc.com > > > MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately then delete it - you should not copy or use it for any purpose or disclose its content to any other person. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments for viruses. Any unauthorized use or interception of this e-mail is illegal. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > > -- > Terror PUP a.k.a > Chuck "PUP" Payne > ----------------------------------------- > Discover it! Enjoy it! Share it! openSUSE Linux. > ----------------------------------------- > openSUSE -- Terrorpup > openSUSE Ambassador/openSUSE Member > skype,twiiter,identica,friendfeed -- terrorpup > freenode(irc) --terrorpup/lupinstein > Register Linux Userid: 155363 > > Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 874 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From habreu71 at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 19:35:58 2018 From: habreu71 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?H=C3=A9ctor?= Abreu) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 00:35:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? References: Message-ID: On 2018-02-19, Phil Turmel via Ale wrote: > Neither. I like nano. > I use Vi, Vim and Emacs Evil-mode and Org-mode. I am interested in some Emacs modes (Clojure-mode, Artist-mode) but when it comes to editor keybindings and menu keybindings I only do Vi/Vim. Short story: I like and use Vi/Vim; Org-mode brought me to Emacs but I refuse to give up Vi/Vim. -- H?ctor A. Abreu From jim.kinney at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 07:12:10 2018 From: jim.kinney at gmail.com (Jim Kinney) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 07:12:10 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You should give a demo talk at ale sometime! Being able show different modes and usage is a great demo. On February 22, 2018 7:35:58 PM EST, "H?ctor Abreu via Ale" wrote: >On 2018-02-19, Phil Turmel via Ale wrote: >> Neither. I like nano. >> > >I use Vi, Vim and Emacs Evil-mode and Org-mode. I am interested in some >Emacs modes (Clojure-mode, Artist-mode) but when it comes to editor >keybindings and menu keybindings I only do Vi/Vim. > >Short story: I like and use Vi/Vim; Org-mode brought me to Emacs but I >refuse to give up Vi/Vim. >-- >H?ctor A. Abreu > >_______________________________________________ >Ale mailing list >Ale at ale.org >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale >See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at >http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. All tyopes are thumb related and reflect authenticity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agcarver+ale at acarver.net Fri Feb 23 15:31:26 2018 From: agcarver+ale at acarver.net (Alex Carver) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:31:26 -0800 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06aeceea-00bf-3b22-12d3-7b6bffe388a8@acarver.net> cat, sed and xxd :) From ted-lists at xy0.org Fri Feb 23 23:27:38 2018 From: ted-lists at xy0.org (Ted W.) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 23:27:38 -0500 Subject: [ale] Using runit or s6 on top of systemd In-Reply-To: <20180218155352.3e5cefb4@mydesk.domain.cxm> References: <20180218155352.3e5cefb4@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: <20180224042738.GA23149@xbook2.techmachine.net> I've really come to like runit. We're using it on some of our newer systems to manage the Kubernetes cluster bits and pieces. It's the simplicity of a Systemd unit file without all the junk and...erm...baggage. On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 03:53:52PM -0500, Steve Litt via Ale wrote: > Hi all, > > One alternative not discussed here is to use the process supervision > portion of runit or s6 to spawn some of your daemons in systemd. > > It's pretty simple: > > 1) Create a runit or s6 systemd service that starts early. > > 2) For each service you want to transfer to runit or s6: > a) Disable it in systemd > b) Enable it in runit or s6 > > Over time, more and more of your services will be run from runit or s6. > Be sure to back up the directories that define the runit or s6 > supervised processes. On my computer that's a 628K backup. > > Runit and s6 are daemontools-inspired init systems with similar > architectures. Runit houses its process supervisor in a process outside > of PID1, while s6 houses its process supervisor inside PID1. Runit is > conceptually simpler, s6 is more robust and withstands greater > challenges. Runit depends on polling much more than s6, although > runit's level of polling has no material effect on machine efficiency. > > SteveT > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jonathan.l.meek at gmail.com Sun Feb 25 15:05:19 2018 From: jonathan.l.meek at gmail.com (Jonathan Meek) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:05:19 -0500 Subject: [ale] vi vs emacs? In-Reply-To: <06aeceea-00bf-3b22-12d3-7b6bffe388a8@acarver.net> References: <06aeceea-00bf-3b22-12d3-7b6bffe388a8@acarver.net> Message-ID: I am messing around with spacevim/neovim, which gives me all the vim commands that I have gotten use to but some added functionality and looks like a IDE. Not sure I like it yet but it has been interesting On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Alex Carver via Ale wrote: > cat, sed and xxd :) > _______________________________________________ > Ale mailing list > Ale at ale.org > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale > See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at > http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eholcroft at mkainc.com Mon Feb 26 09:36:04 2018 From: eholcroft at mkainc.com (Edward O. Holcroft) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:36:04 -0500 Subject: [ale] OT: LAMP dev job opportunity Message-ID: This job is being offered in Johns Creek, GA?? or Walnut Creek, CA. You'll be part of a small IT dev team in a company of under 400 people. Email your resume to me and I'll forward it to the hiring manager. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ MKA is currently looking for a PHP Developer. You will work closely with our team and help develop our CRM website. You should have the thinking capacity to support the end users in terms of design and user Interface. Responsibilities and Duties ? Review and perform technical analysis of business requirements with other team members. ? Produce a solid, detailed technical design. ? Write clean, modular, robust code to implement the desired requirement. ? Perform quality assurance and be able to identify and fix bugs with rapid turnaround. ? Contribute ideas for making the application better and easier to use. ? Front end / Back End development. ? Staying current on relevant technology and conduct necessary research and development testing to assess emerging technology options. ? Must be able to use appropriate terminologies and language to accurately convey changes or direction in concept or design, including to and from non-technical staff. ? Ability to work on multiple projects and prioritize tasks for each. ? Ability to interact and collaborate with others to solve problems. ? Self directed with a strong attention to detail. Qualifications and Skills ? Computing/Computer Science Degree Or Equivalent ? Front-end experience with HTML5, CSS3, jQuery, Bootstrap ? Experience with MVC, Object-Oriented PHP ? Relational database experience, MySQL a plus ? Experience with SVN or GIT a plus ? UX/UI Design Skills MKA is an Equal Opportunity Employer. Job Type: Full-time _________________________________________ *Edward O. Holcroft* IT Operations Manager *Madsen, Kneppers & Associates, Inc.* Construction Consultants & Engineers 11695 Johns Creek Parkway, Suite 250 Johns Creek, GA 30097 *O* 770.446.9606 <(770)%20446-9606> | *F* 770.446.9612 <(770)%20446-9612> | *C* 770.630.0949 <(770)%20630-0949> | eholcroft at mkainc.com www.mkainc.com -- MADSEN, KNEPPERS & ASSOCIATES USA WARNING/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately then delete it - you should not copy or use it for any purpose or disclose its content to any other person. Internet communications are not secure. You should scan this message and any attachments for viruses. Any unauthorized use or interception of this e-mail is illegal. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From warlord at MIT.EDU Mon Feb 26 11:03:46 2018 From: warlord at MIT.EDU (Derek Atkins) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:03:46 -0000 Subject: [ale] List issue In-Reply-To: <20171130173031.741a66bf@mydesk.domain.cxm> (Steve Litt via Ale's message of "Thu, 30 Nov 2017 17:30:31 -0500") References: <888c6930-42e0-7ec3-1824-08955c720159@benshome.net> <96f43540-c717-25a4-c9d9-a8fa875c7399@benshome.net> <1600abd804f.be533006642833.9048959900305285452@robert-tweedy.com> <201711301533.vAUFXthh015798@shell02.TheWorld.com> <20171130173031.741a66bf@mydesk.domain.cxm> Message-ID: Hi, Steve Litt via Ale writes: > On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 10:33:55 -0500 > Ken Cochran via Ale wrote: > >> Hmm, I'm seeing "ale at ale.org" on all emails from the list & >> this is with good old mail/mailx, in a terminal session on >> (I think) SuSE. Previously I would see who the sender was. >> Wish that could return so I can again see who said what. > > Invariably, the "solution" to this DMARC thing greatly inconveniences > most people, because a few like yahoo decided to use it to "solve" > *their* problems. > > The solution I'd advise, especially for a technical list where people > have tech smarts, some amount of money, and several email addresses, is > to not accept email or memberships from anyone using yahoo mail or any > of the other dmarc pushers. For what it's worth, on the gnucash lists that I manage I set mailman to munge addresses from DMARC pushers, but leave everyone else alone. -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL-IA N1NWH warlord at MIT.EDU PGP key available From eff at dragoncon.org Mon Feb 26 14:03:43 2018 From: eff at dragoncon.org (Scott M. Jones) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:03:43 -0500 Subject: [ale] EFF Article on GA SB 315 Message-ID: Please share in appropriate spaces... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/how-grassroots-activists-georgia-are-leading-opposition-against-dangerous-computer From putnamjm at sa.edu Mon Feb 26 20:44:45 2018 From: putnamjm at sa.edu (Putnam, James M.) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 01:44:45 +0000 Subject: [ale] EFF Article on GA SB 315 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <717b4bf0641b46ad99abf2100b016515@SAPC-Mail02.sapc.edu> Made it to Vulture HQ today. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/26/georgia_hacking_bil/ -- James M. Putnam Visiting Professor of Computer Science The air was soft, the stars so fine, the promise of every cobbled alley so great, that I thought I was in a dream. ________________________________________ From: Ale [ale-bounces at mail.ale.org] on behalf of Scott M. Jones via Ale [ale at mail.ale.org] Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 2:03 PM To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts Subject: [ale] EFF Article on GA SB 315 Please share in appropriate spaces... https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/how-grassroots-activists-georgia-are-leading-opposition-against-dangerous-computer _______________________________________________ Ale mailing list Ale at mail.ale.org https://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo