[ale] [Fwd: Advertising on ale.org] - OT MS vs Apple vs Linux/UNIX

[Charles Shapiro]

I chalk it all up to the Moon Landing Conspiracy. The moon landings were
all faked, in a studio ON THE MOON.

--  CHS

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Damon L. Chesser <damon at damtek.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 09/12/2015 04:21 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 22:17:46 +0300
>> damon at damtek.com wrote:
>>
>> Ahhh. No
>>> It is in response to the long thread and the strong opinions in the
>>> thread and in fact was not directed at you or anybody else
>>> specifically.  And IAW Godwin's law, I have now lost the debate.
>>>
>> Yes, you have. Godwin's law doesn't work anymore, and it was always in
>> bad taste.
>>
>> Seriously, it was merely meant in jest. Don't like systemd, don't use
>>> it. Like systemd, use it.
>>>
>> The preceding two sentences encapsulate the entire issue.
>>
>> If systemd were just another modular, replaceable init, everyone you
>> hear cursing it would be dancing in the streets. And truth be told, a
>> lot of us might then choose to use systemd in certain use cases.
>>
>> The problem is, systemd has been engineered from the ground up to
>> exchange dependencies with every part of the Linux system. The
>> motivations for doing this are up for debate, but most folks who have
>> every alt-initted a system will vouch for this: Once you're using a
>> distro that has incorporated systemd as PID1, replacing systemd or any
>> part of it is very, very difficult.
>>
>> For instance, if you currently have sysvinit, OpenRC, runit, s6 or
>> Epoch, switching to runit, s6 or Epoch involves installing the new
>> init, making a new run script (runit or s6) or config section (Epoch)
>> for each *real* process (not the tens of no-reason processes and
>> one-shots run by systemd). Not trivial, but not difficult for a Linux
>> knowledgeable person. You also have to make a shutdown script, and you
>> can find a lot of boilerplate for that on the Internet. It's also
>> possible that you'll need to make minor alterations to your initramfs,
>> but that's actually doubtful.
>>
>> Same thing with a systemd computer: Replace it with runit, s6 or Epoch.
>> Now you need to find a udev equivalent, compile it, get it working. Or
>> else you need to do a lot of workarounds with systemd's udev. You need
>> to take dracut, and use it to create an initramfs that does *nothing
>> but* mount the root partition, and then hand control to the on-disk
>> init. As you do this, contemplate the trouble you'll be in if the
>> systemd industry ever conquers dracut, the way it conquered udev. If
>> so, you'll be back to hand-creating initramfs. And of course you'll
>> need to do all the same things I mentioned when describing alt-initting
>> a non-systemd box.
>>
>> Consider that if sysvinit had been as monolithically entangled with the
>> user portion of the OS (and the kernel if they get their way with
>> kdbus) as systemd is, Red Hat would have had to spend triple what they
>> did to create a replacement init. But like all the other inits except
>> systemd, sysvinit is an encapsulated PID1 plus service manager, so it
>> was easy to replace. The systemd industry climbed the ladder of
>> modularity, and then pulled the ladder up after them.
>>
>> I understand you're probably init agnostic, and that's fine. But you
>> need to be thankful for the people working hard to provide alternatives
>> to the Redhat funded juggernaut, because if Redhat ever succeeds in
>> eliminating alternatives to systemd, they'll have a monopoly on Linux.
>> Most entities who gain a monopoly do not behave well, and the user pays
>> the price.
>>
>
> I am with Michael on this point.  I am init agnostic and just don't care,
> but to claim the evil empire of Red Hat is behind this?  Seems a bit
> bombastic?  We all know the freedom haters of Debian remove choice at every
> turn, and that is why they are backing the init choice of systemd.  Once
> Red Hat controls everything, then Debian can finally close down. Who needs
> those pesky Debian dev meetings anyway?  Always yammering about some social
> contract this and social contract that.
>
> Gento wanted to give it's users only one choice, most like due to Red Hat
> financial interests, but the user base needed to be appeased, so they gave
> you a "choice" of which system to use when you installed it. Some choice.
> Systemd or the old system!  Ha! Only two choices!  Proof they are in league!
>
>>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
>>
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>
> --
> Damon at damtek.com
> 404-271-8699
>
>
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