[ale] a quick test of web site stupid

Thu Mar 7 10:10:08 EST 2013

On 03/07/2013 08:44 AM, Chesser.Damon wrote:
>
> I find the idea of REQUIRING by law, a certain level of proficiency as 
> determined by minimal educational standards and test results 
> abhorrent.  I hold no degree.  I do the work.  100% self educated.  
> You just legislated me to the unemployment line.  Just what we need, 
> MORE government layers to comply with.
>
> How about this, if business A is stupid and hires stupid people and 
> has a security breach, all those customers can move to business B 
> which was not stupid. Business A has self regulated themselves out of 
> the market or self regulated themselves out of stupid.
>
> Damon at damtek.com
>
I am only stating the requirements for a PE. I do not disagree that it 
whether you know the subject that counts not how you learned it. The 
problem with educational requirements is that they do eliminate people 
who learned the subject somewhere else. Also, remember in most 
engineering fields the PE license is required for design approval and 
necessarily for initial design. I worked in the chemical process 
industry doing process design/engineering without a PE. For final 
approval, all my work (and that of others) would go to a PE for review 
and approval.

PE licenses are required to approve a design not necessarily to actually 
design. So a non-licensed person would work under the technical 
supervision of a PE and this is not uncommon.

What I found surprising when I looked into a Georgia PE is that they did 
not require a degree in the specific field (or very closely field) for 
any license. With a BS degree in Chemistry I could take any EIT exam; 
not that I had any hope of passing most. I have noticed that some fields 
are more restrictive for their educational requirements to get the PE 
equivalent.

> *From:*ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *Jay Lozier
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 06, 2013 6:06 PM
> *To:* ale at ale.org
> *Subject:* Re: [ale] a quick test of web site stupid
>
> On 03/06/2013 04:44 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
>
>     On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Matt Hessel <matt.hessel at gmail.com
>     <mailto:matt.hessel at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I see the idea behind the certification, but in practice that
>     seems mostly useful to employers when hiring individuals with
>     little on their resume.
>
> This is different than a certification because there would be 
> design/development standards required that are vendor independent.
>
> It's not for employers. It's for lawyers and judges to use as a 
> bludgeon to make companies use good practices is coding for public 
> consumption. If company FOO is in software development, and they 
> provide code for banking, they MUST have a certified banking code 
> engineer on staff and sign off on the code or else that code is not 
> legal to use for banking. Or they can pay a banking code engineering 
> firm to evaluate their code and sign off if it suits the engineers 
> standards.
>
> If mom-n-pop company hires a developer to put up a web site, they 
> don't need a certified engineer to approve anything UNTIL they add 
> something like shopping site with credit card stuff. If their website 
> gets defaced because they hired an idiot, that's their problem. If 
> their website gets hacked and credit card data is stolen, then it's a 
> criminal offense on them for deploying code that was not approved by a 
> professional engineer. I see drop-in certified modules for various 
> platforms to do this.
>
> This would help PHB inline; just tell them they will have an all 
> expense paid multi-year vacation in the prison system.
>
>
> I can't build a bridge for public use until I am a certified, tested 
> and passed Professional Engineer. As a PE, it's MY name on the line 
> for the stuff I sign off on. So a PE won't approve crap. Is it a 
> perfect system? Nope. But it keeps slick talking idiots from building 
> bridges and practicing law and medicine.
>
> Legally, there are slick idiots who manage to fool people from time to 
> time.
>
>
> A person who passes a PE exam doesn't need much else on their resume. 
> It's not possible to pass without mountains of knowledge and/or 
> experience. There is already a Professional Software Engineer license 
> process. What is needed is to add HIPPA and Banking modules (or more 
> generically - data security) and then require that places that use 
> software in these fields have X years to be using certified, compliant 
> software or they get shut down, fined out the ass or both for repeated 
> violations. "Market forces" can't fix this crap. It's like why we all 
> drive on the right hand side of the road. Someone decided we have to 
> clean up the mess and made it happen.
>
> like i need another project....
>
> Being from another engineering field you need the PE to review and 
> sign off on the design. Also, for a PE it is a multi-step process  of 
> tests and experience. I believe there is an education requirement that 
> you must have a physical science or engineering (BS level or higher) 
> to be allowed to take any exam.  You must pass the EIT - 
> Engineer-in-Training exam for a specific engineering discipline 
> (Civil, Chemical, Electrical, etc), then you must work in the field 
> for several years before you can even take the PE exam in the same 
> field. I believe there are continuing education requirements for a PE 
> license.
>
> What I have seen is the PE requires the vendor to submit all 
> design/load calculations for review with the drawings and 
> documentation. The PE must approve the submission before you have 
> permission to proceed; there might be a couple of rounds of 
> submissions before approval. Competent vendors know what is needed and 
> often will only have the finalize the details for the submission.
>
>
> -- 
> Jay Lozier
> jslozier at gmail.com  <mailto:jslozier at gmail.com>
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-- 
Jay Lozier
jslozier at gmail.com

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