[ale] [OT] Liberties

Thu Aug 22 08:51:28 EDT 2013

The previous statement:

Which is the greater threat, government, or "criminals" ?

      says it all................

Criminals are people which a given government designates as those 
violating it's dictates, however established, i.e. governmentisthe 
threat, either directly
either by it's existence or by it's action, i.e. by legislating what is 
a "crime" and enforcing same.

The founders of this country clearly saw government, including this one, 
as the existential problem and attempted to establish a program of 
improved governance, realizing
that this is a moving target and it is the responsibility, going 
forward, or each generation, to either maintain, or redress, and 
hopefully even improve, democratic goals,

Finally, the truth is:  the problem is not the government, rather the 
people of the United States now have the government they have earned, 
and are earning. Nothing's free,
especially freedom.

As Dylan said at the conclusion of  his "115th Dream",    "I jes say 
good luck"

Courtney Thomas

On 8/21/2013 10:07 PM, Ron Frazier (ALE) wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> You and I don't agree on this and probably never will.  There's no point in beating the issue to death and I don't want to get in a flame war.  Nor do I mean any offense.
>
> Your first statement is understandable, and I could even agree with it to a point, depending on the circumstances.
>
> Your second statement is patently false.  Otherwise, we'd have no laws.
>
> Good people don't commit crimes primarily because crimes generally hurt or kill people and hurting and killing people is morally wrong.
>
> Evil people don't commit crimes for one of three main reasons.  Those reasons do NOT include any moral inhibition.  A) They're afraid of getting caught and punished.  B) They don't have the resources.  or C) They have been caught and are prevented from committing the crime.
>
> Laws and law enforcement attempt to, and sometimes do, accomplish these things.  So, to the extent that laws and law enforcement frighten criminals, deprive them of resources, and detain them, then laws stop crimes.  That extent is definitively NOT nothing.  Laws and law enforcement DO stop some crimes.  Obviously, however, they don't stop ALL crimes.
>
> Furthermore, it's a documented fact that 75% or so of violent felonies are committed by repeat offenders.  So, if you permanently imprison or execute them the next time they repeat, then you reduce violent felonies by 75%.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I choose to surrender NOTHING for a false sense of security. Laws don't
>> stop crime.
>> On Aug 21, 2013 3:27 PM, "Ron Frazier (ALE)" <
>> atllinuxenthinfo at techstarship.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> JD <jdp at algoloma.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 08/21/2013 01:56 PM, leam hall wrote:
>>>>> What I don't have an answer for it the balance between justice and
>>>> privacy.
>>>>> While Ben Franklin's old quote is a great idea, there are too many
>>>> bad people in
>>>>> the world who didn't read it.
>>>> So the 99.9999999% of good people in the world should give up their
>>>> privacy and
>>>> governments shouldn't be held accountable?
>>>>
>>>> The terrorist have truly won.
>>>>
>>>> I am more afraid of my own government than any acts of terror.
>>> Hi JD,
>>>
>>> I am not endorsing the over reaching abuse of our government.  See my
>>> other post today for commentary.
>>>
>>> However, I find your last statement to be fairly radical.
>>>
>>> I do not have ANY fear that the workers at NSA, FBI, CIA, etc. will
>> be
>>> using their power and knowledge to take the lives of 3000 of our
>> citizens
>>> and destroy billions of dollars of property as the the terrorists did
>> at
>>> World Trade Center.  Those workers are, almost universally, working
>> to
>>> prevent OUR lives from ending in a similar manner and protect us from
>>> threats that we don't even know exist in some cases.  Let's keep a
>> little
>>> perspective here.
>>>
>>> Good people have been giving up rights and privileges due to the
>> actions
>>> of a small percentage of bad actors since the beginning of the world.
>>>   There are thousands of laws which we must obey, not because WE would
>> abuse
>>> our fellow citizens and customers and associates, but because OTHERS
>> would
>>> abuse them.  Those laws either make it harder for them to abuse or
>> easier
>>> for us to catch and prosecute them or both.  But, they also make it
>> much
>>> harder on the good people and limit what we can do.  There's no way
>> around
>>> this, as a concept.  It's just the way the world will always work as
>> long
>>> as evil is in play.
>>>
>>> The key is to find the right balance of what do you give up to stop
>> the
>>> bad actors or at least slow them down and catch some of them.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9
>> Mail.
>>> Please excuse my potential brevity if I'm typing on the touch screen.
>>>
>>> (PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want
>> to
>>> call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate
>> energy
>>> mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very
>>> quickly.)
>>>
>>> Ron Frazier
>>> 770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
>>> linuxdude AT techstarship.com
>>> Litecoin: LZzAJu9rZEWzALxDhAHnWLRvybVAVgwTh3
>>> Bitcoin: 15s3aLVsxm8EuQvT8gUDw3RWqvuY9hPGUU
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ale mailing list
>>> Ale at ale.org
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ale mailing list
>> Ale at ale.org
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
>> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>
> --
>
> Sent from my Android Acer A500 tablet with bluetooth keyboard and K-9 Mail.
> Please excuse my potential brevity if I'm typing on the touch screen.
>
> (PS - If you email me and don't get a quick response, you might want to
> call on the phone.  I get about 300 emails per day from alternate energy
> mailing lists and such.  I don't always see new email messages very quickly.)
>
> Ron Frazier
> 770-205-9422 (O)   Leave a message.
> linuxdude AT techstarship.com
> Litecoin: LZzAJu9rZEWzALxDhAHnWLRvybVAVgwTh3
> Bitcoin: 15s3aLVsxm8EuQvT8gUDw3RWqvuY9hPGUU
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
> http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.ale.org/pipermail/ale/attachments/20130822/f8268952/attachment.html>