[ale] OT: Out in left field or in the sewers of The Big Apple

Thompson Freeman tfreeman at intel.digichem.net
Mon Jul 13 17:30:47 EDT 2009 

On 07/13/2009 04:19:06 PM, Jeff Lightner wrote:
> Its not holding others responsible for your
> responsibilities.   Its
> holding them responsible for THEIR responsibilities if
> they didn't put
> up safety barricades around the manhole.
> 
> Talking about traffic and subway entrances is a red
> herring.   We aren't
> talking about normal hazards - we're talking about a hole
> where normally
> there is a cover.  There is a reason why you'll see new
> traffic signals
> flashing for a week to a month before they're turned on -
> its to get
> people used to the fact that there is a change in
> environment.
> 

Hmmm. Thought we might be close to being on the same page.  
Guess we might not be. Sorry. My error.

I disagree that talking about subway entrances or traffic  
being a red herring, because if you aren't aware enough of  
your surroundings to avoid a hole, a nice deep dark hole,  
you  are likely to not be aware enough of traffic, or  
stairs, or low bridges, or utility poles either. The issue  
isn't, or shouldn't be, the specific hazard. The issue is  
awareness of the environment, and the hazards found in that  
environment must be expected to change without notice.

Is the city liable for the crew's failure to erect  
barricades? Yes, as a barricade is a proper item around an  
open man hole hazard. Failure to do so should be a  
sanctionable offense.

Do I find the child (teenager) equally culpable? Yes. In  
this case she earned damage to herself for behavior which  
should (but doesn't) embarrass a child in kindergarten.  
However, the same behavior could have had much more serious  
consequences either for herself or somebody else on the  
street because she wasn't paying attention to her  
surroundings.

The sorriest part of the whole mess is that neither the  
crew, the city, nor the child is likely to learn much of  
anything from the whole expensive mess. I'd lay decent odds  
that the child will resume texting and walking (soon  
driving), the crew will forget barracades, and the city  
will be ripe for something similar to happen all over  
again. Income security for litigatious lawyers??

Stupid Stupid Stupid. (Not you Jeff - people in general who  
refuse to learn.)

As an aside, I was trying to point out that even liberals  
are capable of expecting individuals to look out for  
themselves, despite the past thirty odd years of  
conservative charges that liberals want nothing more than a  
nanny society.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On
> Behalf Of
> Thompson Freeman
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 3:52 PM
> To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux!
> Subject: Re: [ale] OT: Out in left field or in the sewers
> of The Big
> Apple
> 
> 
> 
> On 07/13/2009 02:56:17 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Lightner
> > <jlightner at water.com> wrote:
> >
> > >   Still -  why were the putting up safety cones AFTER
> > opening the manhole?
> > >
> >
> <<snip>>
> 
> > Sheesh. I thought I was "one of the liberals" here :-)
> >
> 
> Last I checked, being "liberal" doesn't mean you hold
> others responsible for "your" responsibilities. If you
> cannot text and have a solid grasp of your surroundings,
> don't text and do _anything_ else. (Which pretty much
> means
> that nobody should text when trying to do much of anything
> 
> because _nobody_ seems able to guarentee situational
> awareness and text.) Instead of a man hole, she could have
> 
> just as easily pushed somebodyelse in the man hole, or
> into
> traffic. Getting mugged is also easier when distracted,
> but
> there were apparently too many witnesses for that...
> 
> > >
> > >
> > > Most OSHA requirements deal with setting up safety
> > environment first and
> > > then starting the work.  Attaching a tether on a high
> > rise after you've
> > > started your fall seldom works...
> > >
> 
> It's too late for the safety glasses when the reaction
> bumps and starts spewing caustic around, it's too late for
> 
> good footwear when you drop the brick over your foot, and
> 
> so forth. Open a man hole, a nice barricade in the way
> first qualifies as a good idea.
> 
> > >
> > >  ------------------------------
> > >
> > > *From:* ale-bounces at ale.org
> [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org]
> > *On Behalf Of *Jim
> > > Kinney
> > > *Sent:* Monday, July 13, 2009 2:22 PM
> > > *To:* Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts - Yes! We run Linux!
> > > *Subject:* Re: [ale] OT: Out in left field or in the
> > sewers of The Big
> > > Apple
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bozo child was a teenager (definition of dumb in many
> > cases). Workers were
> > > apparently standing there setting up safety cones. All
> I
> > read out if this
> > > was: stupid teen was NOT paying attention and walked
> > into a hole. She could
> > > have just as easily fallen into traffic.
> > >
> > >
> > > Do we have to resort to this?
> > >
> >  
> http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1724522,00.html
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Richard Bronosky
> > <Richard at bronosky.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, I have to agree with the parents on this
> one.
> > Knowingly
> > > leaving a manhole cover off without a barrier is
> > unacceptable. We are
> > > all eager to condemn a pop-tart on a cellphone, but as
> > the father of a
> > > 1 & 2 year old I don't like the idea that there could
> be
> > a > 2ft
> > > diameter hole in a sidewalk.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Scott
> > Castaline<skotchman at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > How low can we go?!?! Saw this in Wired
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/07/girl-falls-into-manhole-while-tex
> ting-parents-sue/
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> > >
> > >   --
> > > .!# RichardBronosky #!.
> > >
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> > > --
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> > > James P. Kinney III
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