[ale] [OT] Psychology of Denial about Climate Change

Thu Dec 10 13:34:46 EST 2009

We can end the water wars simply by making use of all of that water
that is wasted in glaciers and the antarctic.

-Rev. Johnny Healey

On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Jim Kinney <jim.kinney at gmail.com> wrote:
> William,
>
> Very well put. It is a choice of risking really, terrifying times vs
> expending huge amounts of resources in both cash and human effort. The CIA
> has noted that bad local economics has a tremendous impact on global
> security as locals with no other activity become violent and join up. In the
> regions where this is happening, the local agriculture is failing mostly due
> to a changing climate. This sharpens the line between the haves and the have
> nots.
>
> Sociologists can't say at what point a person will choose violence as a last
> resort given a set of conditions. But that can say that it will happen at
> some point.
>
> Can we as a species afford to become locked in a truly global conflict
> because of water? It's currently underway in many parts of the world. The
> tri-state water wars surrounding Atlanta pale in comparison to what is about
> to happen in Israel/Palestine as the only water supply for Palestine is
> draining faster than it can refill from natural source and it's being leaked
> into from the sewage tanks that can't be replaced. Then there's Mongolias
> "Ninja Miners" whose gold mining ex-urbanites are destroying the worlds
> largest fresh water reservoir across the border in Russia. Africa has so
> many water issues it's nearly a full time task to keep up with them all. It
> is human intrusion on the environment that is impacting all of these issues.
> Africa is the one area where it is fairly understood to be caused by climate
> change that has it's roots in another area of the world. And African drought
> is impacting the USA. Look at the rise of African immigrants in the past 10
> years. There is also a rise in bronchial infections and asthma as well as a
> noted coral reef decline that has been linked to the evaporation of Lake
> Chad and the subsequent airborne exposure to a particular fungus spore from
> the dried lake bed.
>
> The old boy scout motto still holds true: Prepare for the worst and hope for
> the best. Compared to cost of fighting wars on all continents, scaling back
> the consumption of natural resources is a small price to pay for world worth
> living in.
>
> Besides, MRE's are still crappy to eat anywhere but camping.
>
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 11:00 AM, William Fragakis <william at fragakis.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> No worries, Doug. We can put all those people where there were once
>> glaciers.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850
>>
>> Malthus may not be at work in your neighborhood but he's been definitely
>> busy in some parts of Africa. You might want to read up on some of the
>> social issues (specifically monstrous overcrowding and lack of farmland)
>> that led to the Rwanda genocide.
>>
>> And thanks to those links to the peer reviewed journals, Time and
>> Newsweek.
>> Time includes this quote "
>> "Some scientists like Donald Oilman, chief of the National Weather
>> Service's long-range-prediction group, think that the cooling trend may
>> be only temporary. "
>>
>> Which may well be why the article's title includes a question mark. What
>> that article does not address is increasing CO2 levels which is the
>> cause of concern among many. (or if it did, I missed it.)
>>
>> But, I admit, I'm not a scientist by education but rather an economist
>> where we learn concepts such as expected value. And as Jim K. points
>> out, this again, is what concerns many of us. AGW may well be turn out
>> not to be climatically significant. However, the cost to future
>> generations if it is, may well be catastrophic, not as portrayed in the
>> movies, but the grinding real-life scenario of famine, war, etc. (Again,
>> see Rwanda.)
>>
>> By analogy, the probability in any one year of an asteroid of
>> significant size hitting earth is remote. You are better off, I'd guess,
>> buying a powerball ticket. But if one does hit, the consequences are
>> enormous. That's why we devote money to trying to figure out what to do
>> if we spot one coming.
>>
>> You may be willing to gamble on the welfare of future generations that
>> AGW is a myth but for many of us, the expected value is much too great
>> even if you assume the probabilities small.
>>
>> Lastly, an old saw in the markets is that trees don't grow to the sky.
>> Just because Malthus hasn't been right, yet, doesn't mean he won't be.
>> Again, don't assume you'll see the effect universally but locally.*
>> There are many parts of the world today that struggle to feed
>> themselves. In the rest of the world, we operate on a fine line of
>> feeding everyone assuming everything goes to plan. I'd not want to see
>> the effects if an Indonesian volcano gave us another year without summer
>> as happened in the early 1800s.
>>
>> Regards,
>> William
>>
>> *quoting your wikipedia article on Malthusian Catastrophe:
>> The Malthusian catastrophe appears to have been temporarily averted in
>> Spain, although the Neo-Malthusian theory argues that the situation is
>> only temporary; on the other hand, a significant part of population of
>> Nigeria lives near subsistence levels.
>>
>> David Pimentel and Ron Nielsen, working independently, determined that
>> the human population as a whole has passed the numerical point where all
>> can live in comfort, and that we have entered a stage where many of the
>> world's citizens and future generations are trapped in misery.[7] There
>> is evidence that a catastrophe is underway as of at least the 1990s; for
>> example, by the year 2000, children in developing countries were dying
>> at the rate of approximately 11,000,000 per annum from strictly
>> preventable diseases.[8][9] This data suggests that by the standard of
>> misery, the catastrophe is underway. The term 'misery' can generally be
>> construed as: high infant mortality, low standards of sanitation,
>> malnutrition, inadequate drinking water, widespread diseases, war, and
>> political unrest.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 2009-12-10 at 09:58 -0500, Doug McNash wrote:
>> > The sky is falling, the sky is falling....
>> >
>> > I thought the consensus is that we are heading towards an ice age.
>> >
>> > "Science: Another Ice Age?" Time  June 24, 1974
>> >     http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,944914-1,00.html
>> >
>> > "The Cooling World" Newsweek, April 28, 1975
>> >     http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm
>> >
>> > Reminds me of another fairy tale - Goldilocks.
>> >
>> > The Malthusian Catastrophe (population explosion) also has not occurred
>> > yet even though it keeps getting revised.
>> >
>> >     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malthusian_catastrophe
>> >
>> > As for the rest of your screed, I would suggest you should double up on
>> > your meds!
>> >
>> > (Head down - headed for my bunker now - where I will rape the planet and
>> > no one will hear it scream)
>> >
>> >     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4XhhTF7vRM
>> >
>> > Peace on Earth, Purity of Essence
>> > --
>> > doug mcnash
>> >
>> > ---- aaron <aaron at pd.org> wrote:
>> > > The ongoing exchange on Climate Change has been amusing and very
>> > > revealing about the incredible strengths of scientific method and
>> > > peer review.  It has reinforced my certainty that this is a problem
>> > > that could affect the survival of our species and is something we
>> > > should clearly be addressing with heavy investments in research
>> > > and potential sustainable solutions.
>> > >
>> > > The simple, well documented reality is that the ratios of greenhouse
>> > > gasses in the atmosphere are escalating rapidly due to the activities
>> > > of human beings and their use of fossil fuels. Increasing greenhouse
>> > > gasses will inevitably raise planetary temperature. The rate of human
>> > > population growth is also out of control and continues to escalate,
>> > > so the damage can only get worse from here. Solutions for stemming
>> > > the increase of human population and demand for energy, as well as
>> > > for converting to less toxic and more renewable energy sources, will
>> > > need to happen in tandem if we are to avert disastrous consequences.
>> > >
>> > > The discussion also leaves me in awe that so many normally rational
>> > > people can be so easily manipulated by the corporate welfare state
>> > > propaganda machine and whipped into an extremist, rabid and even
>> > > suicidal frenzy of denial on this kind of issue.  The hate zombies
>> > > serve their blood sucking overlords well, assuring that the glutinous,
>> > > greed driven, unsustainable exploitation of the planet's resources and
>> > > the rape of the compliant masses by the ultra pig elite will
>> > > continue unabated until it all comes crashing down on us (but not
>> > > them) in massive global catastrophes.  The "Cap and Trade"
>> > > delusion is a great example of the level of suicidal denial that
>> > > the hate zombies will buy into -- a corporapist scheme to provide
>> > > the biggest of the ultra pigs with payola permits to poison the
>> > > world's populace without any accountability or consequence --
>> > > yeah, sure, that's a GREAT deal for all us common folk!
>> > >
>> > > The article linked below attempts to explain the psychology of
>> > > this self delusion and denial, but it still doesn't forgive the
>> > > shear suicidal stupidity of it. Especially knowing that most of
>> > > these screaming hate the government (and thus, hate yourself)
>> > > denial freaks are the same clan of rabid zombies that have sat in
>> > > spineless silence through decades of massive deficit tax increases
>> > > imposed on them to fund insane and continual escalations of the
>> > > U.S. war and torture death machine industries. They can magically
>> > > rationalize that it's OK to massively bloat and militarize the
>> > > government and destroy civil rights and democracy and massively
>> > > inflate the tax burden on us, our children and our children's
>> > > children so long as it's being done to support imperialist invasions
>> > > and occupations of foreign lands where we murder the brown people
>> > > there, steal their nation's resources, and let the ultra pigs claim
>> > > ownership of it all.
>> > >
>> > > <http://tinyurl.com/psychofdenial>
>> > >
>> > >
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>
> --
> --
> James P. Kinney III
> Actively in pursuit of Life, Liberty and Happiness
>
>
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