[ale] New Mailing List initiatives for ALE

[Michael Still]

Hi Jerald,

I have not done this but sounds feasible.

A solution to the moderation problem is to have ale at ale.org be an
alias, where delivery is to two destinations.  One being to a list
containing subscribers who wish to receive all content (un-moderated),
another to a new list such as ale-moderated.  This second list would
have all moderation rules applied, but reply-to and what-not
(X-headers) would still be associated with the ale at ale.org name.  In
this case ale-moderated should not accept mail from any destination
other than being forwarded by the alias expansion in order to keep
direct posting from occurring.

Then people could choose which list they want to be on in which case
our current ale membership would by default be on the un-moderated
version.  They would then have the option to move to the moderated
list if they choose to.

Mailman might not support this out of the box, but I think if
implemented would be the most transparent way to implement moderation.

On 9/26/06, Jerald Sheets <jsheets at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> ** The Problem **
>
> After much discussion, informal polling, email back and forth and various
> generic conversation, Those of us charged with the maintenance, care, and
> feeding of the ALE mailing list(s) will be bringing about some changes in
> the near future.  Please allow me to discourse below:
>
> There has been an increasing amount of "reaction" as our list becomes more
> diverse and varied.  Unfortunately, due to the propensity of some of us to
> blather on (raises hand..."Guilty!) regarding many topics unrelated to
> linux, UNIX, technology, or other geekery, we have lost some great
> personalities, talent, minds, and contributors to this community.
>
> I started taking an informal poll around April (around when we started doing
> ALE-NW at my offices) and got a startling congruity of response.  My
> question:  How about joining the ALE list, we could really use experience
> such as yours to contribute to the topics and such.  Overwhelmingly, the
> answer has been that these persons (sysadmins and speakers from all walks
> and from many companies that make up the "top 10" of Atlanta) could not
> afford the sheer volume of emails unrelated to their work.
>
> I have suggested the gmail/Yahoo! Mail solution to no avail.  These people
> (who arguably would be the busiest in our industry) replied (nearly without
> fail) that there was no way they had the time to manage yet another mail
> client with yet another list, and then to do the single thing they did not
> want to do in the first place (pore through hundreds of off-topic posts) due
> to the lack of time they have.  I can relate. (Hurricane Katrina anyone?)
>
> Add to that the few we have lost recently that I have been able to speak
> with (some are not answering email) and the off-topic nature of our list is
> again the culprit.  An unexpected (although not surprising) reason given is
> that on occasion we tend to get a bit off-color in our language from time to
> time and a varying array of things can happen.  Business mail systems can
> bounce the messages and then Mailman cruelly unsubscribes you due to
> bounces.  Or, worse yet, your email can get flagged and membership can find
> themselves being questioned by the resident mail nazi/security/HR/auditing
> poobah which we all know how pleasant that can be.
>
> As such, something really needs to be done.  Many suggestions have been
> floated, some of which had merit, some of which never had merit.  ;)
>
> ** Evaluation **
>
> People have suggested fully moderating the list.  I would offer this is the
> least desirable.  We are all adults here (with the occasional minor thrown
> in for good measure).  We understand that when topics float away from tech
> and into politics (whether related or unrelated to tech) that personal
> sacred cows get the holy-hand grenade of death by standers-by, feelings are
> hurt, epithets are thrown, and the list quiets for a small bit of time until
> things crank back up to the same-old stuff.  Case in point, our esteemed
> Chris Farris has recently left us through a thread that began simply as
> "Ping!".  Look at today's threads...we have another.  Will someone else of
> quality and merit as Chris is be convinced that this is the last straw and
> leave us for good?  Lord, I hope not.
>
> Some have suggested that an Internet forum is the way to go.  Proponents say
> you have an archive, and there's interactivity, etc.  However, our ale
> Mailman archive on-line tends to deliver more and more answers as I google
> for results over time.  It is proving an invaluable resource (to me,
> anyhow...I can't be alone, can I?) on HOWTO information dating back quite a
> few years.  It would be a loss to the community to discontinue that archive
> in favor of forums.  Further, our Pine, mail, and elm friends (insert text
> email client of your choice here) would not be able to fetchmail their ale
> mail to read from "spacebar heaven" on the headless client of their choice.
>
> curses.
>
> One proposal that gained legs in the discussions is that of adding to &
> modifying the rules of our current lists, and to structure them to encourage
> us to keep our enthusiast/community focus, but to allow persons to
> participate in a "low-noise" list, thus retaining quality individuals that
> we are losing/have lost, and to encourage yet unsubscribed individuals to
> come and be a part.
>
> ** The Solution **
>
>
> Thus, [ale] 2.0  (or whatever our revision is these days...I'm new to the
> party) is now in the process of gestation.
>
> Currently, the ale suite of mailing lists is as follows:
>
> [ale]
> an mailing list, for general Linux questions, discussions and information.
> Feel free to post questions here.
>
> [unemployed]
> A discussion list for un-employed Techies in the Atlanta Area
>
>
> ** The Layout **
>
> We will be undertaking to do some splitting of the lists to better serve the
> varied interests of membership and simultaneously keep an "enthusiast" air
> to our dealings.  The model we are adopting was first seen at the DC Area
> Systems Administrator's Guild site:  dc-sage.org.
>
> **********
>
> [ale-announce]   (ale-announce at ale.org)
> This list is moderated and posting is restricted. The sole purpose of this
> mailing list is to make announcements to the entire membership of [ale]
> members about upcoming [ale] events. Any other postings (including
> announcements from other organizations) belong in the [ale] list.
>
> **********
>
> [ale]  (ale at ale.org)
> This is the original mailing list that defined [ale] membership. Discussions
> should be (at least tangentially) relevant to systems administration, or
> sysadmin issues in Atlanta. This list will be moderated for members of [ale]
> to post to and subscribe to. All posting attempts will be moderated for
> relevance to existing threads and content.
>
> For instance:  A topic regarding any technical topic is fair game, from
> wireless routers to Linux admin to UNIX admin to "name your tech topic
> here".  Not unlike the current list.  Even political discourse regarding
> technical issues (DMCA, p2p, etc.) is also acceptable material.  These are
> issues which we all encounter and experience in day-to-day administration
> and technical pursuits.
>
> However, a post regarding war in Iraq, how global warming is Bush's fault,
> and he caused hurricane Katrina to oust poor minorities from their homes in
> New orleans so they can no longer vote as a block against Republican
> interests so Republicans can continue to prepare a "new world order" mindset
> to make it easier for the aliens to take over when they invade...
> Unacceptable for this list, and will be draconianly and unceremoniously
> moderated.  (i.e. never see the light of day)
>
> **********
>
> [ale-chat]  (ale-chat at ale.org)
> This is a new mailing list for random thoughts and babbles to/for/about
> [ale] members. This list is unmoderated for members of [ale] to post to and
> subscribe to. This list is where you should post if you believe that the
> topic does not really pertain to everyone and anyone on the list. In fact,
> this list is probably best used as an [ale] BBS, except that any member may
> subscribe to this list and receive the messages in real time instead of
> reading them from the web ... if that is what you want.  Translation:
> anything goes!  Just as today's [ale] list exists, [ale-chat] will exist.
> Membership will be encouraged to engage in more technical discourse on
> [ale], but [ale-chat] will remain free and unfettered for all the pinging,
> ponging, and politics it can handle.
>
> **********
>
> The current plan of attack is as follows:
>
> 1.  Get an export of every user, and place them into the
> moderated/admin-only no-reply [ale-announce] list. Recall that this list is
> required to be on any [ale] mailing list.  The only mail you will receive
> from this list will be the announcement that it is live, and you are on it,
> and meeting/organizational announcements of the [ale] organization.  You
> may, if you wish, only belong to this list.  Expect >10 emails per month.
>
> 2. Migrate all membership from [ale] to [ale-chat].  This will facilitate
> persons who don't wish to change or move to stay exactly as they are with no
> changes other than (a) the email you use to post to the list and (b)
> changing your own mail filters to reflect the new list address.  Expect
> email traffic roughly analogous to the current list, but perhaps diminishing
> as [ale] gains acceptance/popularity.
>
> 3.  Create and publish the new [ale] list and open it up for registrations
> via Mailman.  This will be the moderated, on-topic only mailing list.  If
> you are buried under work, you can unsub from ale-chat, just keeping ale and
> ale-announce.  Or, if you prefer, you can unsub from [ale] altogether and
> only be on [ale-announce and [ale-chat].
>
> The point is, it's your choice.  You can get involved, or just leisurely
> chat with geeks of like-interest, all while still receiving important [ale]
> announcements.
>
> Well, that's it.  I'm sure there'll be a TON of opinions, both good and bad,
> but at this time it just seems that these steps are the best for the group.
> It may succeed wildly, and it may fail miserably.  Point is, we will have
> tried, and will actually know.
>
> Feel free to comment.  I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
>
> Jerald Sheets
> Host, ALE-NW
> All around nice-guy.  No, really.
> Sysadmin, The Weather Channel
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>
>


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