[ale] New Mailing List initiatives for ALE

[Dan Lambert]

I think that as much as anything, the argument is about changing the 
designation of this list.

It is this list which is the one that we (I'm trusting that I'm not the 
only one that does this) recommend for newbies to come and visit to 
listen and learn. If this is supposed to by the sysadmin list, it was 
never made apparent in any of my reading or discussion that this was the 
original purpose.

I think that IF we need a separate sysadmin list that's moderated, 
create that list, with the understanding going into it that the list is 
moderated, and the subject matter is limited. Make it so that the new 
list is a "members only" list, and have a membership application and 
approval mechanism in place.

It's my gut feeling that you will have a very limited number of people 
who will join, and maybe even fewer who will actively participate. You 
guys may fool me, but I'd be amazed if you did. Even geeks follow 
general human nature. (REALLY!!) =8^O

I think that the effort to improve the list is a worthy cause, and I 
don't think that it is without basis. We could all do better about 
remaining on topic. Having said that, though, making these changes 
should be a community driven situation, and not the few changing in 
spite of the masses. I'm all for having a separate list for sysadmins, 
and a separate announce list. Those are not bad thoughts. They are, 
however, only a couple of thoughts, and we have heard many other ideas 
put forward.

If it is in the best interest of those sysadmins on the list, let's go 
ahead and create the moderated list for them, and transfer over those 
items that are of interest to them. Let them, however, be a parallel 
universe, and if they have comments that they feel would benefit the 
unwashed masses, then let them return that information to the ale list.

I see no reason why they must dig through all of the dross to find a few 
gems of interest to them, but don't punish the rest of us because they 
are too time constrained to enjoy this forum.

Dan

Byron A Jeff wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 12:31:54PM -0400, Mark Wright wrote:
> 
>>I totally agree with Jim.  (Well the part about being funny is still  
>>being considered.)
>>
>>I like the "fellowship" of like minded individuals here.  I think  
>>most people here are the kind of folks I would hang out with at  
>>work.  And the topics, even the immature, irrelevant ones would be  
>>the stuff of our face to face conversations too.  They might not last  
>>as long as they may be quelled with a few disapproving looks but this  
>>is email.  We (the faithful) may have to put up with people joining  
>>that will be unruly for a season but as Jim has pointed out there are  
>>ways of handling this.
>>
>>  Changing to moderation will definitely be destructive.
> 
> 
> Did I miss a part of the discussion? Quick recap:
> 
> A single list has too much "silly" traffic for some of the more busy and
> serious minded Linux users. This is driving them, and their expertise off.
> 
> Proposed solution is to split the list into two components, technical
> moderated and chat unmoderated. The moderated list would be for "serious
> technical" topics while the unmoderated chat list would be this current list.
> Note I'm not bothering with announce.
> 
> I'm unclear how this setup would destroy the sense of community here. The
> chat list would be this list. Since it's unmoderated, technical topics
> would be fair game. I cannot perceive what the change would be.
> 
> Adding the second moderated list would attract some expertise that would
> otherwise avoid the ALE mailing lists altogether from what I read of the
> initial proposal.
> 
> The question is do we want to shun folks who want to participate but don't
> have the time to be bothered with social banter?
> 
> When I read the proposal I saw a split to generate flexibility, not just
> a set of restrictions that will kill the spirit of the list.
> 
> I think that the moderators will have to take time to pay attention to
> the chat list and work on transferring topics that are relevant to the
> moderated list.
> 
> But overall I feel that if we can find ways to attract serious folks
> to the discussion at any level, that it's a plan that should at least
> get some consideration.
> 
> BAJ
> 
> 
> 
>>
>>
>>On Sep 27, 2006, at 10:02 AM, James P. Kinney III wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I think the thing I find most bothersome of late is the back and  
>>>>forth
>>>>of the one liners posters have posted dragging a particular thread
>>>>totally off topic and simply wasting bandwidth.
>>>>
>>>>Let's face it folks, none of us are as funny as we think we are.
>>>
>>>I am definitely funnier than all of you put together :)
>>>
>>>As far as any degree of moderation goes, I don't think that any one of
>>>us is qualified to decide what _I_ get to read or not read other than
>>>me. I suspect that everyone, even the loudest tantrum tossers, on the
>>>list shares that sentiment.
>>>
>>>If someone has issues with a thread, use the delete key, add a BS
>>>filter, etc.
>>>
>>>If someone has issues with the message quantity, subscribe to the  
>>>digest
>>>version.
>>>
>>>If someone has issues with bandwidth, get a better ISP.
>>>
>>>If someone has a problem with spending too much time on the list,  
>>>get a
>>>life!
>>>
>>>I am quite certain I have been on the ALE list since around 1996 or  
>>>so.
>>>For what ever it is worth, _my_ opinion has not been consulted off  
>>>list
>>>about any type of proposed change to the format.
>>>
>>>Not that I have any say so as there does appear to be some  
>>>semblance of
>>>structure rising up from the deep, vi/emacs-edited, man pages history
>>>past of ALE and the zombies of Atlanta Linux Showcase (Damn, I miss
>>>that! Too bad Penguinfest can't get off the ground). If the really old
>>>crusty farts want to make some changes, they can. No matter what is  
>>>done
>>>or not done, it will affect the membership of the group.
>>>
>>>Several years ago (during the Clinton election #2, I believe) a
>>>particularly nasty thread erupted into a flame war. Several people  
>>>were
>>>on the thread trying to calm down some hot heads. Some people, I  
>>>was one
>>>of them, contacted the hot heads off the list and did the escalating
>>>requests to calm down, then please stop posting, then stop posting ,
>>>then finally, GET OFF THE LIST AND GO AWAY.
>>>
>>>Yes, I participated in an action similar to the tar and feather and  
>>>ride
>>>'em out of town on a rail, virtual style. It's not an event I am
>>>particularly proud of. But it serves as example of what community can
>>>do. (NOTE: This public expose of hostilities lasted for MANY, MANY  
>>>DAYS
>>>and was rather abusive and vulgar. Nothing like the mindless bantering
>>>and blathering seen recently.)
>>>
>>>It worked. A particular individual left and the hen house that is ale
>>>settled back down to its normal egg laying and general brooding.
>>>
>>>I like the proposed additional lists. Specifically a list dedicated to
>>>tech stuff would be nice. But at the same time, why bother? Someone  
>>>will
>>>goof and post a smarta$$ remark to the wrong list and feathers will  
>>>get
>>>ruffled. At this point I think that there is NO solution that is
>>>adequate short of personal responsibility being ingrained into each
>>>author. A reminder to those who get an emotional wedgie quite often,
>>>this is a PUBLIC FORUM. Everything said here is available for all to
>>>see. Each authors reputation dribbles from their hot-headed fingertips
>>>every time they hit the <send> button.
>>>
>>>I don't want to see _any_ of this change. The tech notes, the blather,
>>>the jokes, the tips, the _community_ (warts and all). I would  
>>>personally
>>>rather move from my house than have a neighbor or group of neighbors
>>>suddenly decide that they get to make the choice about who gets to
>>>associate with who and in what manner. That is quite contrary to the
>>>general philosophy of the operating system around which this community
>>>has been formed.
>>>
>>>I appreciate the well-meaning efforts of the inner-circle who decided
>>>that the neighborhood needed to be cleaned up. However, in my mind,  
>>>the
>>>long term effect of adding controls to an existing community structure
>>>will only serve to empower those with the rule making ability and to
>>>alienate the others.
>>>
>>>If the powers that be feel they must exercise their sovereign rights
>>>over the ALE domain and mailing list etiquette, they have the root
>>>passwords to do so. Please make the announcement at the onset so  
>>>that I
>>>can unsubscribe.
>>>
>>>If enough people are knicker-twisted enough to want to generate a NEW
>>>list with strict moderation controls, great. Problem solved. All the
>>>people whose tolerance level for a bit of off topic crap will flood to
>>>sign up. Of course to keep it pristine, the inner-circle organizers  
>>>will
>>>need to police the membership list keep out the undesirables.
>>>
>>>They won't see my name crossing the "request approval to join" list.
>>>
>>>I will not be subscribing to that list.
>>>
>>>I'm at home here.
>>>
>>>(fingertips bruised from key pounding...need more coffee...)
>>>-- 
>>>James P. Kinney III
>>>CEO & Director of Engineering
>>>Local Net Solutions,LLC
>>>770-493-8244
>>>http://www.localnetsolutions.com
>>>
>>>GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics)
>>><jkinney at localnetsolutions.com>
>>>Fingerprint = 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Ale mailing list
>>>Ale at ale.org
>>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>
>>_______________________________________________
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>>Ale at ale.org
>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> 
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