[ale] OT: Firewall purchase

Tue Jul 6 08:23:22 EDT 2004

Thanks Chris.  That is interresting.  I'm going to take a closer look.  

That's funny.  I've been looking for good lawn service...

On Monday 05 July 2004 11:16 pm, Christopher Fowler wrote:
> http://www.hotbrick.com/vpn1200.html
>
> Try that one out.
>
> I know I'll draw flames bit I tend to see two mindsets in this list
> group.
>
> The first one is those who want to reinvent the wheel to learn the
> internals. The others are those who value their money far more than their
> time.
>
> When you start doing consultgin you realize that your time could
> be valuable.  You start doing crazy stuff like paying other people
> to cut your grass.
>
> On Mon, Jul 05, 2004 at 11:01:07PM -0400, David Hamm wrote:
> > Chris,
> >
> > > Sub $100 is a good target but might not have all the features.
> >
> > Your right and that's why I posed the question to the group.  The unit I
> > am considering is this one.
> >
> > http://www.netgear.com/products/details/FVL328.php?view=sb
> >
> > It sells for around $400.00 but doesn't support OSPF.  I was hoping
> > someone on the list had experience some other vendor and could suggest a
> > firewall that did support OSPF  Recently I installed a layer 3 switch
> > from D-Link the price was much less than expected, it worked great and
> > was easy to set up.  I'd hoped to get a simlar experience from on this
> > firewall
> >
> > Thanks for your suggestions.  I seem to remember something about a "hot?
> > brick" firewall too.
> >
> > On Monday 05 July 2004 09:41 pm, Christopher Fowler wrote:
> > > Honestly though what I do at home is different that what I would
> > > reccomend a commercail outfit.  I would never ask one of my customers
> > > to go to BestBuy and purchase a firewall for their corporation.
> > >
> > > I've seen a sub $500 product that also looked good.  It was called a
> > > Hot Brick. I believe the 12 port unit was $600 and the 6 port was under
> > > 5.  In reality all I need for my firewall device is a Wan port and Lan
> > > port. Cisco switches can make up for the rest.
> > >
> > > I have a habit of buying cheap switches from Micro Center that have
> > > rebates. For me that is okay.  I have many on the network and it seems
> > > that they just do not like to work very well together.  I have to place
> > > my laptop on an old 10mb hub because SMB traffic fails on these
> > > switches. Everything else works great.  It could be Zinc Whiskers or
> > > the fact these are cheap products that are geared for the end user at
> > > home.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jul 05, 2004 at 05:36:16PM -0400, David Hamm wrote:
> > > > On Monday 05 July 2004 11:13 am, James P. Kinney III wrote:
> > > > > There is a series of firewall products whose name brand escapes me
> > > > > (search on slashdot) that has a backdoor password that was
> > > > > embedded. The patch was a flash upgrade that turned off the
> > > > > password use from the outside connection. Further study showed the
> > > > > power reset would revert back to the default allow remote login
> > > > > with backdoor password.
> > > >
> > > > The units you are speaking of are Linksys's WRT54G and NetGear's
> > > > WG602. They are both both wireless gateways and I didn't find similar
> > > > problems with other products from these manufacturers.
> > > >
> > > > > see above. If I get the time today, I'll dig up the references I
> > > > > was reading on this. It's about 2 months old (or so)
> > > > >
> > > > > The VPN in many off the shelf devices is PPtP which has numerous,
> > > > > well known vulnerabilities. PPtP is used often as it is easy to do
> > > > > and older M$ machines support it easily with little support needed
> > > > > to set it up.
> > > > >
> > > > > When I think of a VPN, I'm thinking IPSec with pre-shared keys.
> > > > > There are many firewall boxes that support IPSec with pre-shared
> > > > > keys. None are in the $100 range. All require additional license
> > > > > purchase for multiple VPN client access.
> > > > >
> > > > > A _real_ VPN server can act as the end point for the VPN tunnel.
> > > > > Most of the firewall devices out there _support_ VPN by merely
> > > > > passing IPSec datagrams freely. They do not act as a VPN server or
> > > > > client.
> > > >
> > > > Take a look at this.  If you still don't believe they do IPSec we can
> > > > have a VNC session and you can watch me set up a couple of tunnels if
> > > > you still don't believe it.
> > > >
> > > > http://netgear.com/products/prod_details.php?prodID=129&view=sb
> > > >
> > > > > **NOTE** I don't regularly check all the stats on new network
> > > > > hardware that does in silicon what I prefer to do in RAM. The last
> > > > > sweep of firewall technology I did was Feb. 2004 and that was of
> > > > > corporate firewall products that support IPSec. None of those was
> > > > > less than $1500.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > All of the off-the-shelf firewall devices are generic boxes
> > > > > > > that are cookie cutter rule sets for a limited set of
> > > > > > > protection scenarios. The ability to ssh into the firewall and
> > > > > > > adjust as needed is absolutely priceless.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, I like ssh and IPtables too but this isn't a problem for
> > > > > > that solution.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then have the client spend the $100 for "The Emperors New Clothes"
> > > > > firewall product. Make sure you get a release of liability document
> > > > > signed before you put it in. If it is a product that _you_
> > > > > recommend, you WILL be the first person called on a problem. I have
> > > > > found supporting products that I don't have complete and full
> > > > > access to difficult at best and impossible at worst. I don't like
> > > > > being in the position of having the responsibility for a situation
> > > > > but not the authority to do what I see is best to make the solution
> > > > > happen.
> > > >
> > > > I'm sorry, this discussion has ended as far as I am concerned.  The
> > > > only real help I got was from Chris suggesting I look at a new
> > > > vendor.  The above comments don't posses and characteristics of
> > > > prductive dialog and could easily be detrimental to some.
> > > >
> > > > > > On Sunday 04 July 2004 08:31 pm, James P. Kinney III wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sun, 2004-07-04 at 16:15, David Hamm wrote:
> > > > > > > > Thanks for the links and suggestions but this firewall is for
> > > > > > > > a client and building a custom firewall will not be price
> > > > > > > > competitive; Especially if you consider the ease of use
> > > > > > > > available for $100 from Netgear and D-Link.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Both of those have known security issues. Neither support VPN
> > > > > > > connections directly. Having a hardware device that has had a
> > > > > > > backdoor password that is HARDCODED into the silicon and well
> > > > > > > published is a waste of cash. One the power blinks, they go
> > > > > > > back to the default backdoor settings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The upfront cost of buying a supportable setup is negligible
> > > > > > > compared to the replacement cost over time of upgrading the
> > > > > > > firewall hardware system everytime a new feature to stop a new
> > > > > > > style of attack is not upgradeable by a flash of the bios.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All of the off-the-shelf firewall devices are generic boxes
> > > > > > > that are cookie cutter rule sets for a limited set of
> > > > > > > protection scenarios. The ability to ssh into the firewall and
> > > > > > > adjust as needed is absolutely priceless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Besides, how else are you going to run Bob's ruleset?!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sunday 04 July 2004 03:40 pm, Dow Hurst wrote:
> > > > > > > > > David Hamm wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for a firewall that supports IPSEC for VPN
> > > > > > > > > > and OSPF. Netgear has
> > > > > > > > > > stuff I found attractive but with no OSPF support. Moving
> > > > > > > > > > parts (ie fans and
> > > > > > > > > > disks ), and user licensing are out. Anyone have any
> > > > > > > > > > suggestions?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > Ale mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > Ale at ale.org
> > > > > > > > > > http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Look at building it yourself using Slackware, Bob Toxen's
> > > > > > > > > second edition of his book, and a Epia based fanless
> > > > > > > > > supersmall machine with dual builtin NICs.  His book has
> > > > > > > > > drop in iptables rules that are excellent. Once you get
> > > > > > > > > that far then going thru the IPSEC Howto is not too
> > > > > > > > > difficult.  Just involves a kernel module compile and
> > > > > > > > > insertion.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Links:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/VPN-Masquerade-HOWTO.html#toc3
> > > > > > > > > http://www.impsec.org/linux/masquerade/ip_masq_vpn.html
> > > > > > > > > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/03/11/Big_Scary_Daemon
> > > > > > > > >s.ht ml (this is one idea)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
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