[ale] Indian outsourcing

[ChangingLINKS.com]

You made some good points and illustrated your concerns well. 
Also, I appologize for my misinterpretations.

<snipped a lot>
1.
> THIS
> IS THE FREAKING POINT ----- I CANNOT LIVE IN AMERICA ON $4,500/ ANNUM. SO
> DON'T MENTION "COMPETE" WHEN I HAVE TO RUN A RACE CARRYING A 100 LB PACK ON
> MY BACK.  Competition implies a somewhat level playing field.

Here is where I think we disagree. I am suggesting that perhaps it is not cost 
effective for US companies to hire you, and it is not cost effective for you 
to work for them. Do not expect THEM to pay more than they have to in order 
to complete a task, if YOU are not willing to get paid a lot less to complete 
the task. Sounds like a situation that just won't "work out."  

I support Geoffrey's attitude here:
"You design it, you create it, you test it and they give you the 
schedule.  Figure that one out.  Either that or you're working 12 hour 
days.  No thanks Corporate America, if I'm going to work 12 hour days, 
I'll do it for myself." --Geoffrey

Walk away. Do it yourself for yourself. Geoffrey is doing for self. Awesome.
I am thinking more should be like Geoffrey and Toxen. Just do it.
I even think it is possible for someone who is trully creative and a decent 
programmer to code a program that generates enough money to live off of.

2. 
Contrarily, I don't support those that virtually beg companies for jobs and 
get upset when their wage is not met. Don't ask for a job. Make one. Working 
for a company is a privilege, not right.  
Likewise, for companies having consumers is a privilege, not a right.
At what point does a man break down to the point where he supports laws that 
will get him a job based on his religion, race, creed, or location?

3.
>  Can you code
> > the project
> > 3 times quicker?
> 
> Can they ? Hell no.  The point is the only reason you pick them is $$$$.

No. That is not the only reason I pick them. I have posted redundantly several 
reasons why I opt for offshore programmers (especially Russian-like).

4.
> > US programmers - even the possibility of a Union, benefits, employee law,
> > emotional attachment (because of the close proximity), etc.
> 
> PROBLEMS ???  PROBLEMS ???  PROBLEMS ???  PROBLEMS ???  So it is ok to treat
> workers like sh** ????  Gee, I guess that explains everthing you say about
> why you like offshoring.  Drew, you might want to consider spending more
> time on alt.robber .barons instead of ALE (they would be more sympathetic,
> but then we need you to balance the ultra liberals)

WHOA. I was not saying employees *should* be treated badly. 
However, there is an alternative attitude here. Having employees is a 
priviledge for a company. If you don't like how a company is treating you, if 
you don't like the work, if you don't like the pay, if you don't like 
invasion of privacy (or whatever) move on.

> I am just trying to highlight that the "common downsides of offshoring" are 
not as bad as some US programmers try to portray it AND that there are 
downsides to US programmers as well (which US programmers systematically 
omit). . . . and THAT is why US companies are offshoring.

> No, they are doing it because they are greedy and no one has exacted
> retribution upon them for their actions ... yet

I am having a really hard time seeing how this is "greed." Paying less for a 
product, a service or work is NOT greed. I am thinking that you are just 
"name calling" or trying to pose a moral or ethical reason why you should get 
paid more than someone else willing to provide the same service.
	Once again;(Moral indignation IS jealous with a halo)

To wit:
Greed: "An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or 
deserves, especially with respect to material wealth." 
Simply paying less weather it be at Walmart, using free Linux, or reducing 
business related costs is not greed. We must isolate the issue to wages 
(because some CEOs can pay low wages and improve the product while other CEOs 
can just pocket the money to buy themselves another 1976 Ford LTD 
Stationwagon).

The bottom line:
I realize that I am not going to convince you that you should 
START A COMPANY AND RUN IT HOW YOU FEEL IT SHOULD BE RUN 
and you are not going to convince me why companies should pay you 3 times more 
to get a task done (without demonstrating how you offer 3 times the value).
-- 
Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
http://www.ChangingLINKS.com

I appologize to myself and this list for discussing this issue AGAIN. 
It's a really weird phenomenon.