[ale] Indian outsourcing

[ChangingLINKS.com]

On Thursday 29 January 2004 17:03, Greg wrote:
> Well, I guess it's time for my 2 cents ...  I agree with Andrew.  Life at
> 20-something and life at 40 are two different situations.  

Age is commonly used as an excuse for a change in position or failure.
A man spent the majority of his life interviewing millionares and doing 
research to find out what they have in common. Towards the end of the book, 
he points out that most men aren't successful until they pass 40. He 
attributes this in large part to something he calls "sexual transmutation." 
Nonetheless, the attitude it takes to be successful and achieve personal 
goals can be used at any age, and can overcome any excuse.
(Having integrity with personal attitudes can be a goal).

> The abstract
> theory bs that goes down in chic coffee shops isn't what a lot of Americans
> are experiencing and I think that will become evident in the next election.
> Irregardless of what your bank account says, it is still one person, one
> vote (more or less) and I kinda don't really expect to see Bush v2.0 in
> office too much longer. 

Good Lord, I hope you are right - I think most of us hope you are right. But, 
the one vote myth was brought to light in the last election, don't you think? 
I was laughing at those people that really thought they had power in their 
vote. I ain't a democrat, and I don't even like to vote. But, THIS time I was 
planning on actually going to the voting booth and casting a vote for the 
Democratic canidate (I kinda like that Kerry guy - after I saw him speak).
What are the chances that my democratic vote will actually COUNT here in 
TEXAS?
//thinking I better vote the Democratic ticket or I am really wasting my time.
//betting "Texas" votes for Bush.

> Also, I probably wouldn't mind if the Indians were better, but it isn't
> that - it's that they live in a cheap society that is incomparable to ours.
> So let's be fair and level the playing field. 

It IS fair. Would you like everyone to have a "fair" shot at your wife/
girlfriend? We can't ALL be winners - that is just part of the game. Deal 
with it. You have so many advantages that YOU are undervaluing - causing you 
to ironically believe that somehow the "Grass is Greener" in India. LOL.

> When it costs the same to
> live over there as here, then talk about fairness.

Cost of living ain't everything. In fact, some of the wealthest people in this 
country have a high "cost of living." People in New York and DC have a higher 
cost of living than you do. Do you see them bitching about how easy YOU have 
it?

> Try saddling the Indians
> with the same costs of living, taxes and government regulations *then*
> compare us with only coding skills as the variable .... I mean you wouldn't
> compare 2 different software packages on 2 different boxes, would you ?
> (Linux on a 286 and MS on a quad Zeon ?).

Yes you would. Compare an SUV to a motorcycle. The task: Outrunning the cops.
Perhaps you just aren't the right tool for the job. MAYBE someone else can do 
it faster, for less money and be more responsive (like a motorcycle).
Ultimately, working code is working code.

> I think the whole thing boils down to greed (no, not wanting to make money,
> but greed.  There's a difference)

How many things do you have that come from offshore? Your shirt? You Palm 
Pilot? Your car? Your motorcycle? The crappy electronics that you got at 
Radio Shack? The point is most of us (if not all) consume *something* made 
overseas at a cheaper price. Is this Greed?

Pay $10K for a Harley that won't run without a weekly tune up, or pay $8K for 
a Suzuki Bandit 1200? Buy American does not always make since. AND what is 
the motivation behind it????? "Buy American so we can greeeedily keep the 
money in our hands, so that WE can remain in 'power'"? 
To think that this country that has the most doesn't have enough is . . . .

> ... the same thing that brought us Enron
> et al., the Iraq conflict, and a whole mess of other problems -  in society,
> in politics, and in business.  And it always ends up bad for someone
> everytime.
Why does everyone bring up Enron in relationship to off-shoring?

> 
> And as far as working a project half way around the world and expecting it
> to work as well as having the folks who are 1 cubicle over ... well .. ok
> ... I guess common sense isn't that common ...  Funny what consultants and
> B-schools teach, but if they are so freakin' brilliant, then why aren't they
> all millionaires?  Being able to go to an actual end user and say "OK, show
> me *exactly* what you want" is priceless.  The other option is trusting a
> business analyst to get it right - when that analyst is neither the person
> doing the job nor coding the software and is possibly unintelligible, or to
> be pc "lacking in verbal skills" (i.e. no normal American can understand
> their brand of "English") .  While it may work great for some projects
> (Linux, BSD), other software projects have different requirements and
> environments.

This is another problem US programmers have. I believe that they miscalculate 
the "hardship" of working with overseas coders and ELIMINATE the downsides to 
working with US programmers.

1. In your example, the company is US based, and ALL of the programmers are in 
India. Don't you realize that you can send a whole damn department (to 
oversee the project) overseas and still save money? Often there is so much 
extra money left over from using the cheaper labor, companies can afford to 
add more features to the code - or talk long distance for hours to India - or 
fly to India - or spend more on marketing - or send it back to the share 
holders.

2. In your example the Indians can't speak English as well as you. 
a. All it takes is a few Indians onsite that DO speak it well enough.
b. Another option is to have a Americans from India smooth communication.
c. When communication is more difficult, (whispering, language barrier, morse 
code) people actually try to LISTEN more carefully. *Some* US programmers are 
"know it alls" and don't really *listen* to clients. Communication through 
language barriers is much easier than you think. In my experience, I have had 
guys FINISH coding a formula before I can fully explain it - and get it right 
(language barrier and all). In every experience I have had, the offshore 
programmer was *faster.* The MAKE TIME and work hard - whereas, US 
programmers will "scedule you in sometime." 
Offshore programmers ask questions when they don't understand words.
If I don't understand a question I get, I say "I don't understand. Ask that a 
different way."  It is no different than communicating with a US programmer 
who uses too much jargon. 
Aslo ti is vrey pssible for us to understands the wurst grammitical & speeling 
airors. Sea?

3. US programmers are not that much better in skill level especially when it 
comes to offsetting the cost being 3 times as much. Can you code the project 
3 times quicker? And, there are other problems that companies can face with 
US programmers - even the possibility of a Union, benefits, employee law, 
emotional attachment (because of the close proximity), etc.

4. Also, consider the economics of the situation. For those in India, getting 
$11K may put them into a better lifestyle than most of the other Indians. So, 
the money they get is "a lot" of money (at least to them). If you were 
getting paid "a lot" would you try to do your best, or just blow off the job? 
I think most of us would try to make sure our employer is happy WHEN we are 
happy with our income. See the point? Indians *may* have motivation to work 
harder because "the money is right." The same motivation you would have to 
"do a nice job" for say, $125K-$200K.
I paid one guy $2500 for a project in Romania. He claimed that to him the 
money was worth $7500 or so. (Then he moved to Canada, got a job for 
$75,000US and economics cost me my best programmer. Doh!)

4. I am not trying to say that "all US programmers suck." I am just trying to 
highlight that the "common downsides of offshoring" are not as bad as some US 
programmers try to portray it AND that there are downsides to US programmers 
as well (which US programmers systematically omit). . . . and THAT is why US 
companies are offshoring. I don't believe offshoring is a FAD (except with 
regard to news coverage). Read Yahoo finance and you will see that share 
holders are rewarding companies for offshoring by buying more stock. :)

> 
> Just my opinion (worth about 50 rupees),
That ain't much money over here ;)

> 
> Greg
> 

:wq!
-- 
Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew Brown
http://www.ChangingLINKS.com