[ale] New website for H1B [Slightly OT]

[ChangingLINKS.com]

On Wednesday 28 May 2003 10:18, F. Grant Robertson wrote:
> > $7.99 all you can eat Steak (it was more enjoyable
> > than some of the higher priced steak houses I have been to - and I am in
> > Texas!) I also find that I end up slapping on the same A1 sauce!
>
> On a $7.99 steak that might be acceptable, but A1 on a 28 dollar steak is
> an insult. 
That statement is the influence of marketing. And it is why *I* felt weird 
requesting A1 on a high priced steak. Fortunately, my wife requested it - and 
I asked them to put it in a bowl (instead bringing the bottle to display on 
my table. Higher priced/Brand name stuff is not always better. Perception 
plays a role - and marketing can change perception - or not.

> > *How* does your code work "better enough" to offset it's own price on the
> > organizations' bottom line?
> > What does your "steak code" do, Grant?
> > What does it look like?
> > How is your code 3 times better?
> > How are you better?
> > Did you code in 1/3 the time, or is it code that does something "hard"
> > (like maybe voice recognition)?
> > What can you code that the cheaper programmer can't?
> > Can you show us some "steak code" Grant?
>
>  Drew, I find this quite insulting. 
I did not want it to be an insult. These were NOT rhetorical questions. 
However, your reaction here supports the statment that I made when I said "US 
programmers are less emotionally stable." If you asked me such questions 
about my marketing techniques, I would answer you. I can prove with detailed 
lists and case studies that my techniques are worth their commission. It is 
just part of doing business - or soliciting commission.

> I don't have to prove *diddly* to you,
> as there isn't a snowballs chance in hell I would *ever* try to get a
> programming job from you. 
I would not hire you. You charge more, you have acted as a troll in the past, 
you are taking my questions as a personal attack instead of what they were 
meant for: discovery and learning. Moreover, because you have pride coloring 
your vision, I would probably overthink the code before starting and take 
more time. All of the flaws that I mentioned. Still, I am NOT writing tihs to 
insult you - but rather to recover the points that I started with. By 
starting flames in a cool-headed thread, you illustrate my position "waste 
bandwidth" (Note: We covered what wasting bandwidth means last week :) ).

> You seem
> to have this attitude that everything you do is brilliant and blessed, 
I do take artistic pride in some stuff I have come up with. But not everything 
I do is brilliant and blessed. I have tried working with US programmers that 
are expensive, insecure, slow etc. . . . and I keep going back with hope. For 
the record, I am working with a US programmer now, BUT he seems emotionally 
secure, said he would work fast, and bid competitively. He also majored in 
the core subject matter (which over qualifies him). Oh, and he happens to 
live locally - and I have been to his house.

>and
> furthermore that you are *above* having to learn more than the most minor
> details about anything. 
You are using words like "everything and anything" which invalidate your 
statemtents. Still, there is some truth to the sentence above - I do avoid 
knowing details that are not directly related to making decisions.

> Couple that with your apparent need to "show me up"
I don't need to show you up. I was hoping that you would "just show up." You 
claimed you were a steak, and I asked "What is a steak?" and you said "I find 
your question insulting" instead of answering the questions.

> on the list, and quite frankly Drew it's no wonder I find you to be a real
> jackass.
I am not acting like a troll. I am only trying to discuss the topic and 
support my initial claims. I find the subject matter worth discussion (as do 
others that tapped me offline). Go back through my posts and you will not see 
me insulting as you have here. My intent is not to make you mad - still in 
your anger you have illustrated my position. I did not mean to hurt you.
	"A man cannot consider himself angry if not first hurt."

>  Unfortunately, you can't solve this by "reinstalling" me.  I imagine this
> debate is quickly abandoning your comfort zone as a result.
I am well within my comfort zone. I am even willing to go to extra lengths to 
prove my postion holds true. I have tried to answer EVERY question related to 
this thread posed to me. (Note: I can "reinstall you" by simply asking for 
the answers to the questions from others that share your position - as you 
will see that I do below).

>  As for what "steak code" I've ever written, what I don't own I can't post
There are other ways to demonstrate you have the skill. I was thinking you 
could write the "stock ticker" project that I got for $70 and then we could 
run a poll (on list) to ask other programmers what the code is worth - and 
which code is better. (Or I would have even been willing to start with a new 
demonstration project). Coding contests happen all the time. I am also open 
to other benchmark tests.

> and, quite frankly, what I own I refuse to post. 
I understand. Perhaps you could have described it or answered my other 
questions. Perhaps you could have posted only 66 lines of something.
I believe that there is no support for your position that you are a steak. 

Notice that until you started flaming, this thread was flameless. Still, _I_ 
will not flame you or act like a troll on this thread. I had a sincere dream 
to discover why US companies should hire you when they can get the same code 
for 1/3 the price and you dig your heals in and say "I refuse to answer."  
That is probably the attitude that you have taken with large US companies and 
why they join me (or vice versa) in going offshore..

> And furthermore, I've seen
> your code in questions you've posted here and, I think you'd be hard
> pressed to tell a good programmer from a hole in the ground.
That may be correct. However, you claim to be a good programmer and you have 
left a void (hole in the ground) in this discussion. I was hoping you could 
illustrate why a programmer is "good" or can charge 3 times as much. I have 
described what a "good programmer is" on this thread.

>  This is quickly degenerating into a flame war. 
There are no flames but your own. H1B discussions do NOT have to become flame 
wars. In fact, I was hoping that I could avoid it and that is why I tried to 
eliminate the "Buy American or you will wreck the World" argument. I did not 
want this thread to get lost in political diatribe. The second you signed "I 
am a steak," you accepted the definition of a steak and positioned yourself 
to defend your claim. Claims that cannot be defended are fraudulent or at 
least frivolous.

> Drew, you have your
> philosophy and, right or wrong nothing I or anyone on this list says will
> change it. 
Yes, you could have changed my mind by answering the questions. I am not 
rigidly against US programmers. I work with one now. He is changing my mind 
(at least relating to him).

> Just know that the choice you've made to publicly defame any
> programmer you've ever come in contact with affects the way you are viewed
> on this list, 
I am not centrally concerned with "how I look" on this list. If I need a new 
programmer, I post to this list, scriptlance.com and ITmoonlighter.com. I get 
responses from all sources and choose a programmer. If there are programmers 
out there that do not like me for whatever reason they are, in turn, not good 
canidates for me to hire. :) 

> and certainly affects my perception of your intelligence, and
> your level of skill.
I have not named any programmer to defame. I have only stated experiences that 
I have had with "US programmers." My position is not to defame you; I still 
don't even know you. My effort is centered around learning if there is 
support for your position.
Your perception of my intelligence and skill level is partly related to your 
emotional steak(pun intended) in your postion. If you listed valid reasons 
why one should pay you 3 times as much as George Carless(or any other foriegn 
programmer), I would have accepted them without flaming you - implying that I 
don't think you are intelligent.

***
I am still open-minded related to there being a justification of higher priced 
US programmers (and we have not even covered the fact that there are higher 
priced offshore programmers). I understand that Grant is "quickly dissolving 
into a flame." 
                        I offer you "charbroiled" steak. :)
If there are other programmers that would support the position on or offlist, 
I welcome the new information.

I see the line that you (Grant) have drawn in the sand. Your position is that 
you do not need to justify your statement that you are a steak. I will not 
badger you for proof any longer. Considering the unsupported claim that you 
have programmed for 20 years, I feel that deep down you may be a steak.
But by your posting, I am reminded . . . that meatloaf comes from steak.

--
Still Wishing you Happiness, Joy and Laughter,
Drew
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