[ale] Linux SuSe vs Windows 2000 Server

[Chris Fowler]

I suggest using the best configuration program written for Linux.

vim-enhanced.  


On Sat, 2003-03-08 at 20:56, Jonathan Glass wrote:
> 
> Hehe.  And some of us get paid to do this every day!  Ain't it great!?!
> 
> I currently have 5 Samba PDCs running non-stop.  I love being able to
> upgrade to the latest version of Samba w/o affecting any of my users, or
> rebooting the machine!  -HUP is my friend!!!
> 
> As Geoffrey said, please feel free to post any questions you have, and
> you'll get more than adequate help from this list.
> 
> Check out Webmin (http://www.webmin.com) for systems administration.
> I'd recommend for the best learning experience you do all your admin
> work from the command line so you learn how everything works, and then
> look at something like Webmin which makes administering a linux box a
> point and click experience from any web browser (even over HTTPS!!).
> 
> Have a nice one, and good luck!!!
> 
> Jonathan Glass
> Systems Support Specialist
> IBB/GTEC
> 4/385-0127
> 
> > You can also expect such support in your efforts if you decide to go
> > with Linux.  Post to the list any problems you have, you'll get
> > excellent assistance, from folks who provide it because they believe
> > in Linux, not because they get paid to provide support. :)
> >
> > Laurie Anderson wrote:
> >> Jeff,  thank you for replying to my query.  I am leaning toward Linux
> >> but am not all that savvy so hesitant.  I will have to rely on a dear
> >> friend's assitance.  It's the fear of the unknown that would prevent
> >> me from using Linux and the challenge of the unknown that draws me to
> >> Linux.  I am very appreciative of the time you (and others) took to
> >> answer my question.  Wow! I didn't expect such well thought out and
> >> time consuming responses.  I think the Linux community is incredibly
> >> supportive of one another.
> >> Again, thank you,
> >>
> >> Laurie
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: <hbbs at attbi.com>
> >> To: <ale at ale.org>
> >> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 10:33 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [ale] Linux SuSe vs Windows 2000 Server
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>To a great extent, Geoffrey's sentiments echo mine.
> >>>
> >>>Laurie, one thing about me that you should probably know about me
> >>> when
> >>> evaluating anything I have to say about Linux-vs.-Microsoft
> >>> decisions is
> >>
> >> that I
> >>
> >>>was once a *BIG* Microsoft booster.
> >>>
> >>>I started my career working with VAX/VMS systems, first as a software
> >>
> >> engineer
> >>
> >>>and then as a system administrator.  As far as home computers go, I
> >>
> >> started with
> >>
> >>>a mere Sinclair and I picked up an Amiga 1000 in late 1986.  That
> >>> last
> >>
> >> detail is
> >>
> >>>important in that unlike the Apples, Ataris, and IBM PCs of the day,
> >>> the
> >>
> >> Amiga
> >>
> >>>ran an honest-to-goodness multitasking OS with a surprisingly capable
> >>> interprocess communication capability and a windowing GUI.
> >>>
> >>>From that standpoint (i.e., VMS and Amiga), Win3.1 machines appeared
> >>> a
> >>
> >> little
> >>
> >>>bit crude, but when WinNT came out, what I perceived was an OS that
> >>> was
> >>
> >> almost a
> >>
> >>>spiritual combination of both VMS (this is no accident) and AmigaDOS
> >>> for
> >>
> >> Intel
> >>
> >>>hardware.  I had a production NT Server system running in 1995 when I
> >>> was working for the US Department of Energy.  I built and bought a
> >>
> >> progressively
> >>
> >>>heftier series of NT servers and workstations and by the time I left,
> >>> I
> >>
> >> had
> >>
> >>>created an NT-based infrastructure that supported an entire DOE field
> >>
> >> office.
> >>
> >>>I should also add that WinNT pretty much filled the feature set of
> >>> Banyan
> >>
> >> VINES,
> >>
> >>>a network server OS that I had worked with extensively in the early
> >>> 1990s.
> >>>
> >>>During that time, I knew Linux existed but it wasn't until the mnnths
> >>
> >> before I
> >>
> >>>left that I really started to care.  I had become closely associated
> >>> with
> >>
> >> WinNT
> >>
> >>>and had done all kinds of things with it - videoconferencing servers,
> >>> multimedia, RDBMS, vertical-market client-server apps - but I was
> >>> starting
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>get disillusioned.
> >>>
> >>>Running and working with VAXen, when you got into a jam, you called
> >>> DEC
> >>
> >> tech
> >>
> >>>support and people who were sharp as a tack would be on the line iwth
> >>> you
> >>
> >> in a
> >>
> >>>couple of minutes.  Get into a jam with NT, and MS would prefer to
> >>> send
> >>
> >> you to
> >>
> >>>your hardware vendor (what if you built your own server?).  Hardware
> >>
> >> vendors
> >>
> >>>tended to be ineffectual and ineffective, which bugged me to no end.
> >>
> >> However,
> >>
> >>>what bugged me even more was MS' even more standoffish attitude, as
> >>> though
> >>
> >> their
> >>
> >>>attitude about things like hardware drivers were "release and
> >>> forget;"
> >>
> >> something
> >>
> >>>about your problem might show up in the Knowledge Base or maybe not,
> >>> and
> >>
> >> in any
> >>
> >>>case, hardly anyone seemed to be able to actually help you with a
> >>> problem
> >>
> >> and
> >>
> >>>you couldn't even *buy* your way out of that.
> >>>
> >>>The perception I had had of MS being a benevolent force that was
> >>> going
> >>> to
> >>
> >> lead
> >>
> >>>us away from six-digit mainframe support costs began to curdle.  I
> >>> began
> >>
> >> to see
> >>
> >>>non-standard ways of doing what had been standard things (DNS/WINS,
> >>
> >> IP/NetBEUI)
> >>
> >>>and a seeming rejection of "fitting in" with enterprise networks
> >>> (although certain pieces were friendlier, like printing to LPD
> >>> printers).
> >>>
> >>>Fast-forwarding to the present day, I know too much to ever recommend
> >>> an
> >>
> >> all-MS
> >>
> >>>enterprise IT infrastructure with a clear conscience, and that's
> >>> *without* taking into consideration that MS has been twice convicted
> >>> in the US
> >>
> >> courts of
> >>
> >>>running an illegal monopoly and aiming its giant cash gun wherever it
> >>
> >> needs to
> >>
> >>>even today (witness their attempts to bribe the Indian government
> >>> away
> >>
> >> from Linux).
> >>
> >>>I do not see Linux as being THE answer; I think that the BSDs deserve
> >>
> >> notice and
> >>
> >>>consideration as well.  But, more to the point, I have come to see
> >>> the
> >>
> >> value of
> >>
> >>>the whole Open Source Software concept, regardless of exactly which
> >>> OSses
> >>
> >> are in
> >>
> >>>play.
> >>>
> >>>Let me give you a real-world example (albeit one that never actually
> >>> came
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >>>fruition although the point is every bit as valid) that shows how
> >>> this
> >>
> >> affects
> >>
> >>>me as an IT manager.  I was researching the design of a document
> >>> image
> >>> management system that would have utilized very serious scanning
> >>
> >> hardware -
> >>
> >>>think high-end Fujitsu units.  And there would have had to have been
> >>> a
> >>> lot
> >>
> >> of
> >>
> >>>them, because the number of documents being scanned in one engagement
> >>
> >> would have
> >>
> >>>been on the order of 10^6.  Naturally, if you go buy one of those
> >>
> >> scanners,
> >>
> >>>you're going to get Windows drivers and some operating software on
> >>> CD.
> >>>
> >>>Now, because I need these scanners and the computers that run them to
> >>> be
> >>
> >> part of
> >>
> >>>a larger business operation, I might need to have some say-so over
> >>> just
> >>
> >> what
> >>
> >>>it's like to run those scanners on a real job.  My scanner operators
> >>> are
> >>
> >> likely
> >>
> >>>to be only "lightly skilled;" I need a lot of them and I don't want
> >>> to
> >>
> >> have to
> >>
> >>>pay them a fortune or have to spend days training them.  Also, I want
> >>> them
> >>
> >> to be
> >>
> >>>able to scan docs very quickly because I'd be paying them by the
> >>> hour;
> >>
> >> having
> >>
> >>>them futz about with a mouse and a keyboard doesn't help my cause.
> >>>
> >>>At this point in my story, just look up the two roads that fork
> >>> ahead,
> >>> one
> >>
> >> Win
> >>
> >>>and one Lin, and think of what my life will be like on each.  For
> >>> purpose
> >>
> >> of
> >>
> >>>argument, suppose that the scanner-model-specific driver in both
> >>> cases
> >>
> >> (under
> >>
> >>>TWAIN for Win and under SANE for Lin) doesn't quite work right for
> >>> what I
> >>
> >> need
> >>
> >>>(either buggy or doesn't behave like I need it to).
> >>>
> >>>The software that comes with the scanner with invariably be
> >>> Windows-only
> >>
> >> and it
> >>
> >>>will make assumptions about the operator and his/her knowledge and
> >>
> >> capability
> >>
> >>>that may be at odds with my purposes.  Likewise, Linux' xsane app
> >>> will
> >>> do
> >>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>same thing.  BUT, what are my problem-solving paths foward?
> >>>
> >>>  Win:  Buy Win app devel tools/compiler; write new TWAIN front end
> >>> Lin:  Use app devel tools/compiler already on hand; modify
> >>>        existing xsane
> >>>
> >>>Either way, I need good programmers.  However, the barriers to
> >>> actually
> >>
> >> getting
> >>
> >>>work done the Lin way are far lower.  Suppose I don't even want to
> >>> manage
> >>
> >> a
> >>
> >>>programmer (they consume all the Dew in the office anyway :) ); what
> >>> do I
> >>
> >> do?
> >>
> >>>  Win:  Call Japan to find out who you have to pay to get a modified
> >>>        TWAIN front end; you'll likely never speak with the
> >>> programmers (not that they'd necessarily speak English);
> >>> you'll have to pay whatever they quote you
> >>>  Lin:  Untar the xsane source code, get the programmer's name, call
> >>> him
> >>>        up or e-mail him (could be a her, sue me), offer him $2500 to
> >>> code up a list of changes
> >>>
> >>>Now, you tell me how you would rather conduct your working life!  In
> >>> the
> >>
> >> Win
> >>
> >>>way, everything about the external relationships you have to transact
> >>
> >> within is
> >>
> >>>on the other party's terms (who you don't know and probably can't
> >>> speak
> >>
> >> to) and
> >>
> >>>you have to pay them an awful lot to get them to raise their amount
> >>> of
> >>
> >> caring
> >>
> >>>off of the zero peg.  In the Lin way, terms are arrived at mutually
> >>> and to *some* extent, the programmer is incentivized to do your
> >>> bidding *just
> >>
> >> because
> >>
> >>>you are interested in his abilities and gave him a challenge*!  Add
> >>> real
> >>
> >> money
> >>
> >>>to the equation and you're very likely to get what you need done!
> >>
> >> Personally,
> >>
> >>>I'd rather not go around, hat in hand, ready to be shaken down at
> >>> every
> >>
> >> street
> >>
> >>>corner.
> >>>
> >>>Laurie, I can just about flat-out guarantee you that if you go the
> >>> Linux
> >>
> >> route
> >>
> >>>instead of the Win2K route, even if you wind up in the same place
> >>
> >> functionally
> >>
> >>>speaking, you will know more, understand more, and be able to
> >>> accomplish
> >>
> >> more at
> >>
> >>>the end of the day.  I also contend that your overall mental
> >>> bandwidth
> >>
> >> will be
> >>
> >>>less directed at the OS and more directed at the apps you run on it
> >>> and
> >>
> >> how you
> >>
> >>>can actually improve things at your place of work.
> >>>
> >>>I have a Linux/Samba file server at home that Just Works, much like
> >>> others
> >>
> >> have
> >>
> >>>said.  Its uptime appears to be limited by its hardware
> >>> (specifically,
> >>
> >> fans),
> >>
> >>>its electricity supply (it's on a UPS), and the need to move it
> >>> between
> >>
> >> houses.
> >>
> >>>   It blows even large files (>500MB) around itself and other
> >>> machines
> >>> on
> >>
> >> the
> >>
> >>>network flawlessly, even though it's running ReiserFS from back when
> >>> it
> >>
> >> was
> >>
> >>>considered a bit dodgy.  It's even using a crappy Gateway-2000-OEM
> >>> Slot A motherboard.  I've worked in business that didn't have an IT
> >>> resource like
> >>
> >> this
> >>
> >>>available to it, and the box probably doesn't have quite $500 in
> >>> parts
> >>> in
> >>
> >> it.
> >>
> >>>I can take other people's castoff here-just-take-it JUNK and create
> >>> real
> >>
> >> working
> >>
> >>>business IT infrastructure out of it for no money.  I can make a
> >>> print
> >>
> >> server
> >>
> >>>out of a 486 that isn't any worse in the job than a P4.  There are
> >>> LOTS of businesses that are just dumping server hardware with nice
> >>> hot-swap disk
> >>
> >> bays
> >>
> >>>that can be refitted very easily.  If you work in a place that
> >>> utilizes
> >>
> >> some
> >>
> >>>kind of sequential repetitive processing due to the nature of the
> >>
> >> business,
> >>
> >>>imagine being able to make a Mosix cluster out of JUNKERS that you
> >>> can
> >>
> >> build and
> >>
> >>>expand for nearly no hardware cost.
> >>>
> >>>I could go on and on about aspects of the difference between working
> >>> in
> >>
> >> WinWorld
> >>
> >>>and LinWorld but I hope you get my point.  It's not JUST the money
> >>> and
> >>
> >> it's not
> >>
> >>>JUST the ethics - it's the ability to make choices and create what
> >>> you
> >>
> >> need.
> >>
> >>>It's about not having the software being developed, released, and
> >>> limited
> >>
> >> in
> >>
> >>>such a way to continually vacuum money out of your company (to the
> >>> point
> >>
> >> where
> >>
> >>>that seems to be as much its purpose as anything else it's actually
> >>
> >> designed to
> >>
> >>>do).
> >>>
> >>>It's about having apps that seem to be a bit twittery on purpose.
> >>> Lots of businesses create Access databases and inevitably seem to
> >>> hit that wall
> >>
> >> where,
> >>
> >>>either due to its inherent limitations (usually having to do with
> >>> locking)
> >>
> >> or
> >>
> >>>from being just plain buggy, a whole marketing machine awaits to take
> >>> you
> >>
> >> to MS
> >>
> >>>SQL Server Win2K Server, and a suite of MS-only app design and
> >>> deployment
> >>
> >> tools.
> >>
> >>> It *serves MS' purposes* for Access to be limited and buggy; their
> >>
> >> customers
> >>
> >>>have to buy it ALL to move forward (Access included, which almost
> >>> always
> >>
> >> would
> >>
> >>>have been bought and/or licensed PER SEAT as part of the $$$ MS
> >>> Office
> >>
> >> suite).
> >>
> >>>Who wins?  Who loses?
> >>>
> >>>- Jeff
> >>>
> >>>>Greg,
> >>>>
> >>>>I find your whole post quite appropriate and I thank you for
> >>>> providing, probably the most balanced input available on this list.
> >>>> But.... :)
> >>>>
> >>>>I would suggest that one must consider the future and try and make a
> >>>> difference.  By continuing to invest in the Microsoft monopoly
> >>>> machine, we continue to reduce our own options.  We all must make
> >>>> the difficult choice to change the future.  To make it better.  To
> >>>> that end, I'd suggest that Linux is not only the best solution, but
> >>>> the only solution when the options are Linux or a Microsoft
> >>>> solution. Grant it, if you have some hardware that is not supported
> >>>> by Linux, then you're pretty well stuck.  But, we should all build
> >>>> on the future.  Until we create a competitive environment in the
> >>>> world of computers, it won't happen. Microsoft certainly isn't
> >>>> going to do it, and they are in control.
> >>>>
> >>>>I never purchase any hardware anymore until I've done my research
> >>>> and
> >>>> verified that it will work with Linux.  That's not possible if
> >>>> you've already got the hardware in place as Laurie has indicated.
> >>>> Still, I'd suggest that the last resort is a Microsoft solution.
> >>>> And only then, if proper plans are made to migrate to a more open
> >>>> solution in the future.
> >>>>  Your systems environment is only going to get better and your
> >>>> options
> >>>>grow.  Something we don't have a lot of these days in a world with
> >>>> Microsoft....
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Laurie, take a long hard look at your decision.  Going with a Linux
> >>>> solution may well be more difficult to start with, but in the long
> >>>> run, you're going to be better off.  Going with a Microsoft
> >>>> solution is only going to continue to restrict your options and
> >>>> future.  Move in the direction of growth, not the restricted,
> >>>> costly solutions that are all Microsoft.
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Until later: Geoffrey esoteric at 3times25.net
> >>>>
> >>>>The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
> >>>> Think about it...
> >>>>
> >>>>_______________________________________________
> >>>>Ale mailing list
> >>>>Ale at ale.org
> >>>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Ale mailing list
> >>>Ale at ale.org
> >>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ale mailing list
> >> Ale at ale.org
> >> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net
> >
> > The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
> > Think about it...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ale mailing list
> > Ale at ale.org
> > http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jonathan Glass
> System Support Specialist II
> Institute for Bioengineering & Biosciences (IBB)
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ale mailing list
> Ale at ale.org
> http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale


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