[ale] Linux SuSe vs Windows 2000 Server

[Geoffrey]

You can also expect such support in your efforts if you decide to go 
with Linux.  Post to the list any problems you have, you'll get 
excellent assistance, from folks who provide it because they believe in 
Linux, not because they get paid to provide support. :)

Laurie Anderson wrote:
> Jeff,  thank you for replying to my query.  I am leaning toward Linux but am
> not all that savvy so hesitant.  I will have to rely on a dear friend's
> assitance.  It's the fear of the unknown that would prevent me from using
> Linux and the challenge of the unknown that draws me to Linux.  I am very
> appreciative of the time you (and others) took to answer my question.  Wow!
> I didn't expect such well thought out and time consuming responses.  I think
> the Linux community is incredibly supportive of one another.
> Again, thank you,
> 
> Laurie
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <hbbs at attbi.com>
> To: <ale at ale.org>
> Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 10:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [ale] Linux SuSe vs Windows 2000 Server
> 
> 
> 
>>To a great extent, Geoffrey's sentiments echo mine.
>>
>>Laurie, one thing about me that you should probably know about me when
>>evaluating anything I have to say about Linux-vs.-Microsoft decisions is
> 
> that I
> 
>>was once a *BIG* Microsoft booster.
>>
>>I started my career working with VAX/VMS systems, first as a software
> 
> engineer
> 
>>and then as a system administrator.  As far as home computers go, I
> 
> started with
> 
>>a mere Sinclair and I picked up an Amiga 1000 in late 1986.  That last
> 
> detail is
> 
>>important in that unlike the Apples, Ataris, and IBM PCs of the day, the
> 
> Amiga
> 
>>ran an honest-to-goodness multitasking OS with a surprisingly capable
>>interprocess communication capability and a windowing GUI.
>>
>>>From that standpoint (i.e., VMS and Amiga), Win3.1 machines appeared a
> 
> little
> 
>>bit crude, but when WinNT came out, what I perceived was an OS that was
> 
> almost a
> 
>>spiritual combination of both VMS (this is no accident) and AmigaDOS for
> 
> Intel
> 
>>hardware.  I had a production NT Server system running in 1995 when I was
>>working for the US Department of Energy.  I built and bought a
> 
> progressively
> 
>>heftier series of NT servers and workstations and by the time I left, I
> 
> had
> 
>>created an NT-based infrastructure that supported an entire DOE field
> 
> office.
> 
>>I should also add that WinNT pretty much filled the feature set of Banyan
> 
> VINES,
> 
>>a network server OS that I had worked with extensively in the early 1990s.
>>
>>During that time, I knew Linux existed but it wasn't until the mnnths
> 
> before I
> 
>>left that I really started to care.  I had become closely associated with
> 
> WinNT
> 
>>and had done all kinds of things with it - videoconferencing servers,
>>multimedia, RDBMS, vertical-market client-server apps - but I was starting
> 
> to
> 
>>get disillusioned.
>>
>>Running and working with VAXen, when you got into a jam, you called DEC
> 
> tech
> 
>>support and people who were sharp as a tack would be on the line iwth you
> 
> in a
> 
>>couple of minutes.  Get into a jam with NT, and MS would prefer to send
> 
> you to
> 
>>your hardware vendor (what if you built your own server?).  Hardware
> 
> vendors
> 
>>tended to be ineffectual and ineffective, which bugged me to no end.
> 
> However,
> 
>>what bugged me even more was MS' even more standoffish attitude, as though
> 
> their
> 
>>attitude about things like hardware drivers were "release and forget;"
> 
> something
> 
>>about your problem might show up in the Knowledge Base or maybe not, and
> 
> in any
> 
>>case, hardly anyone seemed to be able to actually help you with a problem
> 
> and
> 
>>you couldn't even *buy* your way out of that.
>>
>>The perception I had had of MS being a benevolent force that was going to
> 
> lead
> 
>>us away from six-digit mainframe support costs began to curdle.  I began
> 
> to see
> 
>>non-standard ways of doing what had been standard things (DNS/WINS,
> 
> IP/NetBEUI)
> 
>>and a seeming rejection of "fitting in" with enterprise networks (although
>>certain pieces were friendlier, like printing to LPD printers).
>>
>>Fast-forwarding to the present day, I know too much to ever recommend an
> 
> all-MS
> 
>>enterprise IT infrastructure with a clear conscience, and that's *without*
>>taking into consideration that MS has been twice convicted in the US
> 
> courts of
> 
>>running an illegal monopoly and aiming its giant cash gun wherever it
> 
> needs to
> 
>>even today (witness their attempts to bribe the Indian government away
> 
> from Linux).
> 
>>I do not see Linux as being THE answer; I think that the BSDs deserve
> 
> notice and
> 
>>consideration as well.  But, more to the point, I have come to see the
> 
> value of
> 
>>the whole Open Source Software concept, regardless of exactly which OSses
> 
> are in
> 
>>play.
>>
>>Let me give you a real-world example (albeit one that never actually came
> 
> to
> 
>>fruition although the point is every bit as valid) that shows how this
> 
> affects
> 
>>me as an IT manager.  I was researching the design of a document image
>>management system that would have utilized very serious scanning
> 
> hardware -
> 
>>think high-end Fujitsu units.  And there would have had to have been a lot
> 
> of
> 
>>them, because the number of documents being scanned in one engagement
> 
> would have
> 
>>been on the order of 10^6.  Naturally, if you go buy one of those
> 
> scanners,
> 
>>you're going to get Windows drivers and some operating software on CD.
>>
>>Now, because I need these scanners and the computers that run them to be
> 
> part of
> 
>>a larger business operation, I might need to have some say-so over just
> 
> what
> 
>>it's like to run those scanners on a real job.  My scanner operators are
> 
> likely
> 
>>to be only "lightly skilled;" I need a lot of them and I don't want to
> 
> have to
> 
>>pay them a fortune or have to spend days training them.  Also, I want them
> 
> to be
> 
>>able to scan docs very quickly because I'd be paying them by the hour;
> 
> having
> 
>>them futz about with a mouse and a keyboard doesn't help my cause.
>>
>>At this point in my story, just look up the two roads that fork ahead, one
> 
> Win
> 
>>and one Lin, and think of what my life will be like on each.  For purpose
> 
> of
> 
>>argument, suppose that the scanner-model-specific driver in both cases
> 
> (under
> 
>>TWAIN for Win and under SANE for Lin) doesn't quite work right for what I
> 
> need
> 
>>(either buggy or doesn't behave like I need it to).
>>
>>The software that comes with the scanner with invariably be Windows-only
> 
> and it
> 
>>will make assumptions about the operator and his/her knowledge and
> 
> capability
> 
>>that may be at odds with my purposes.  Likewise, Linux' xsane app will do
> 
> the
> 
>>same thing.  BUT, what are my problem-solving paths foward?
>>
>>  Win:  Buy Win app devel tools/compiler; write new TWAIN front end
>>  Lin:  Use app devel tools/compiler already on hand; modify
>>        existing xsane
>>
>>Either way, I need good programmers.  However, the barriers to actually
> 
> getting
> 
>>work done the Lin way are far lower.  Suppose I don't even want to manage
> 
> a
> 
>>programmer (they consume all the Dew in the office anyway :) ); what do I
> 
> do?
> 
>>  Win:  Call Japan to find out who you have to pay to get a modified
>>        TWAIN front end; you'll likely never speak with the programmers
>>        (not that they'd necessarily speak English); you'll have to pay
>>        whatever they quote you
>>  Lin:  Untar the xsane source code, get the programmer's name, call him
>>        up or e-mail him (could be a her, sue me), offer him $2500 to code
>>        up a list of changes
>>
>>Now, you tell me how you would rather conduct your working life!  In the
> 
> Win
> 
>>way, everything about the external relationships you have to transact
> 
> within is
> 
>>on the other party's terms (who you don't know and probably can't speak
> 
> to) and
> 
>>you have to pay them an awful lot to get them to raise their amount of
> 
> caring
> 
>>off of the zero peg.  In the Lin way, terms are arrived at mutually and to
>>*some* extent, the programmer is incentivized to do your bidding *just
> 
> because
> 
>>you are interested in his abilities and gave him a challenge*!  Add real
> 
> money
> 
>>to the equation and you're very likely to get what you need done!
> 
> Personally,
> 
>>I'd rather not go around, hat in hand, ready to be shaken down at every
> 
> street
> 
>>corner.
>>
>>Laurie, I can just about flat-out guarantee you that if you go the Linux
> 
> route
> 
>>instead of the Win2K route, even if you wind up in the same place
> 
> functionally
> 
>>speaking, you will know more, understand more, and be able to accomplish
> 
> more at
> 
>>the end of the day.  I also contend that your overall mental bandwidth
> 
> will be
> 
>>less directed at the OS and more directed at the apps you run on it and
> 
> how you
> 
>>can actually improve things at your place of work.
>>
>>I have a Linux/Samba file server at home that Just Works, much like others
> 
> have
> 
>>said.  Its uptime appears to be limited by its hardware (specifically,
> 
> fans),
> 
>>its electricity supply (it's on a UPS), and the need to move it between
> 
> houses.
> 
>>   It blows even large files (>500MB) around itself and other machines on
> 
> the
> 
>>network flawlessly, even though it's running ReiserFS from back when it
> 
> was
> 
>>considered a bit dodgy.  It's even using a crappy Gateway-2000-OEM Slot A
>>motherboard.  I've worked in business that didn't have an IT resource like
> 
> this
> 
>>available to it, and the box probably doesn't have quite $500 in parts in
> 
> it.
> 
>>I can take other people's castoff here-just-take-it JUNK and create real
> 
> working
> 
>>business IT infrastructure out of it for no money.  I can make a print
> 
> server
> 
>>out of a 486 that isn't any worse in the job than a P4.  There are LOTS of
>>businesses that are just dumping server hardware with nice hot-swap disk
> 
> bays
> 
>>that can be refitted very easily.  If you work in a place that utilizes
> 
> some
> 
>>kind of sequential repetitive processing due to the nature of the
> 
> business,
> 
>>imagine being able to make a Mosix cluster out of JUNKERS that you can
> 
> build and
> 
>>expand for nearly no hardware cost.
>>
>>I could go on and on about aspects of the difference between working in
> 
> WinWorld
> 
>>and LinWorld but I hope you get my point.  It's not JUST the money and
> 
> it's not
> 
>>JUST the ethics - it's the ability to make choices and create what you
> 
> need.
> 
>>It's about not having the software being developed, released, and limited
> 
> in
> 
>>such a way to continually vacuum money out of your company (to the point
> 
> where
> 
>>that seems to be as much its purpose as anything else it's actually
> 
> designed to
> 
>>do).
>>
>>It's about having apps that seem to be a bit twittery on purpose.  Lots of
>>businesses create Access databases and inevitably seem to hit that wall
> 
> where,
> 
>>either due to its inherent limitations (usually having to do with locking)
> 
> or
> 
>>from being just plain buggy, a whole marketing machine awaits to take you
> 
> to MS
> 
>>SQL Server Win2K Server, and a suite of MS-only app design and deployment
> 
> tools.
> 
>> It *serves MS' purposes* for Access to be limited and buggy; their
> 
> customers
> 
>>have to buy it ALL to move forward (Access included, which almost always
> 
> would
> 
>>have been bought and/or licensed PER SEAT as part of the $$$ MS Office
> 
> suite).
> 
>>Who wins?  Who loses?
>>
>>- Jeff
>>
>>>Greg,
>>>
>>>I find your whole post quite appropriate and I thank you for providing,
>>>probably the most balanced input available on this list.  But.... :)
>>>
>>>I would suggest that one must consider the future and try and make a
>>>difference.  By continuing to invest in the Microsoft monopoly machine,
>>>we continue to reduce our own options.  We all must make the difficult
>>>choice to change the future.  To make it better.  To that end, I'd
>>>suggest that Linux is not only the best solution, but the only solution
>>>when the options are Linux or a Microsoft solution.  Grant it, if you
>>>have some hardware that is not supported by Linux, then you're pretty
>>>well stuck.  But, we should all build on the future.  Until we create a
>>>competitive environment in the world of computers, it won't happen.
>>>Microsoft certainly isn't going to do it, and they are in control.
>>>
>>>I never purchase any hardware anymore until I've done my research and
>>>verified that it will work with Linux.  That's not possible if you've
>>>already got the hardware in place as Laurie has indicated.  Still, I'd
>>>suggest that the last resort is a Microsoft solution.  And only then, if
>>>proper plans are made to migrate to a more open solution in the future.
>>>  Your systems environment is only going to get better and your options
>>>grow.  Something we don't have a lot of these days in a world with
>>>Microsoft....
>>>
>>>
>>>Laurie, take a long hard look at your decision.  Going with a Linux
>>>solution may well be more difficult to start with, but in the long run,
>>>you're going to be better off.  Going with a Microsoft solution is only
>>>going to continue to restrict your options and future.  Move in the
>>>direction of growth, not the restricted, costly solutions that are all
>>>Microsoft.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Until later: Geoffrey esoteric at 3times25.net
>>>
>>>The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
>>>Think about it...
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Ale mailing list
>>>Ale at ale.org
>>>http://www.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
>>
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> 

-- 
Until later: Geoffrey		esoteric at 3times25.net

The latest, most widespread virus?  Microsoft end user agreement.
Think about it...

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