[ale] Corporate taxes... (please, someone stop me.. I've created a monster)

[James S. Cochrane]

At 02:37 PM 11/13/02 -0500, Jeff Rose wrote:

>I don't recall ever saying the rich should pay more taxes than the
>poor.  Just that they should shut up about paying their taxes period.

Oh, so they don't have a say in how much their neighbors decide to extort 
from them at the point of a gun?

>I'm not going to comment on the facts you gave because I haven't
>researched them.  But I know that everyone I know who makes 27,000 or
>less pays in the neighborhood of 12-18% in taxes.  According to the
>figures you presented, hardly anyone who makes less than 27,000 pays any
>taxes.  Every year I have made less than 27,000 I have still had to pay
>my taxes.  I don't know the specifics of how your figures were
>colloected or what they represent.  I do know that we all pay too much
>taxes.  And that could be alleviated by cutting up the sacred cow known
>as defense spending.  That's my opinion.

Which is one of the few areas of Federal government spending which is 
actually authorized by the supreme law of our land.   Two days ago, we 
celebrated a holiday remembering our veterans who
have given their sweat, blood, and lives for this country, but you think 
defense spending is a 'sacred cow'.

> >
> > Now, given those numbers.. we can effectively eliminate somewhere near
> > 50% of our total population as possible voters (Hey, those are your
> > rules.. I'm not the one who said people who don't pay tax shouldn't get
> > to vote). In my oppinion, it's not those who pay little or no tax who
> > shouldn't vote, rather those who couldn't pass a reasonable civics
> > test.. This is not rocket science but, since you don't learn civics or
> > economics in government schools anymore, I'll bet a dime to a dollar
> > that 65% or better of the population couldn't pass even the most
> > remedial civics exam.
>
>I said avoids paying taxes.  As in tax evasion.  There is a difference.
>People below the poverty line still deserve to vote.  Corporations that
>make billions in profit and return none of it to the American people,
>don't deserve any influence.  Suggesting voter's take an iq test before
>casting a ballot stinks of arrogance.  Voting is a basic right.

Oh?  Where did you get that idea?  There have been restrictions on the 
franchise for most of this country's history.  Some amendments have been 
passed outlawing certain restrictions on the franchise, but the idea that 
voting is a 'basic right' has no foundation in the actual language of our 
Constitution.

>  Be
>careful when you suggest it is one only deserved by the 'intellectuals'
>of this country.  And you're right, schools are woefully mismanaged.
>But not everyone can send their kids to private school.  It is in the
>best interest of this country to keep its citizens healthy and
>educated.  The best way to ensure this is a good public education
>system.

No, that's the best way to ensure that citizens are indoctrinated to 
certain political, economic, and environmental viewpoints.  Anybody who 
thinks differently hasn't paid attention to what actually goes on in the 
public school systems, including the latest silliness in Cobb County.

>
> >
> > The rich pay taxes, they pay a lot of taxes, and indeed they pay more
> > than their fair share. Graham-Ruddman (or Reganomics as you liberals
> > love to call it.. Supply Side Economics is what it's actually called as
> > an intellectual concept.) .. was only an attempt, (neigh, a partial
> > success as these numbers were much worse prior to the budget of 1982) at
> > leveling the inequities of the US tax codes.
> >
> > Go ahead, soak the rich all you want..  But let me ask you this. Who
> > creates wealth in this country? I can assure you it's not the blue chip
> > corporations, at least not the majority of wealth. The majority of
> > wealth in this country is created by small business. Daring and
> > courageous individuals that embrace the spirit of the free market
> > economy and go into debt to create opportunity for themselves and
> > others. Something in the neighborhood of 70% of GDP is passed through
> > the hands of small business (Businesses with less than 5 million dollars
> > in GROSS recipts in any given fiscal year..). They also employ the vast
> > majority of our people, and are responsible for something on the order
> > of 85% of all new job creation.
>
>I think wealth is created by the people who buy goods and services.  If
>the majority of people can't afford goods and services, everyone
>suffers.  Corporations are killing the economy by paying managers and
>CEO's outrageous salaries.  When stock goes down, layoffs happen.  But
>rarely in management.  And don't even mention that the CEO should take a
>pay cut to help out.
Wealth created by SPENDING money?  Can I have some of what you're 
smoking?  Wealth is created by those who PRODUCE goods and services that 
others are willing to pay for.  As for 'abuses' in the corporate world, you 
can lay the blame for those directly on those who own stock but don't 
bother paying attention to what is going on.  Which is actually a large 
part of the economic bubble that burst, idiots buying stock without having 
a basic idea whether the company they were investing in had a decent 
business plan, decent management, etc...


> >
> > Now, I ask you.. Have you ever gotten a job from a poor man? If you
> > actually knew of what you speak, you wouldn't be speaking it. And, not
> > to offend but, it's people like you that scare me to death, as you vote
> > for the people who've made you believe what you do.
>
>Actually I have gotten a job from a poor man, several actually.  You
>argued that it isn't the rich who provide most of the jobs but rather
>small businesses.  Then you imply that the only way to get a job is if a
>rich man is kind enough to give it to you.  I'm glad I scare you.  I am
>sick of the status quo.  In my opinion, right wing conservatives have
>been in control of this country for too long.  The middle class is
>disappearing.  The constitution is being subverted. Personal freedom is
>being taken away.  All in the name of big business.  Liberals have no
>say in this country and haven't for a long time.  Maybe if they did,
>individuals would still be more important than corporations.  It amazes
>me how conservatives arrogantly think of their businesses as being
>larger and more important than the workers who keep them functioning and
>the consumers who keep funding them.  Companies are a team effort.
>Everyone should share in the success of the company they work for.
>CEO's on average make somewhere in the neighbor hood of 300x the amount
>that an average worker for his/her company makes.  That to me is
>obscene.  Especially in companies where upper management comes and goes
>frequently.  People come in, make a mint and then retire.  Who cares
>about the success of the company.  As long as they get theirs.  I'm
>sorry but I refuse to worship at the altar of the rich.  I have no
>problem with people making money.  But that should give them no more
>power than the poorest American and relieve them of none of their
>responsibilities.
> >

It would help if you gave an indication of what you thought 'middle class' 
was.  And I've outlined what a citizen's responsibilities are, if YOU want 
to pay for all of the various handout programs that have no Constitutional 
basis, feel free to do so, but when you vote to have a man point a gun at 
me to force ME to pay for them, expect me to resent it and work like hell 
to end that situation.

> > Think for yourself!  Find the _actuall_ facts (and I'm not pointing you
> > to any right wing policy groups.. I'm pointing you to our own Office of
> > Management and Budget... it's a .gov for a reason.. it's not just a
> > bunch of "right wing fortuante ones", it's the federal budget.. it gets
> > passed every year.
>
>I do think for myself as I can see you do.  Unfortunately, to most
>conservatives, thinking for yourself means towing party line.  The
>republican party is interesting as I think it has at once some of the
>most informed and some of the most uninformed members in the country.
>Republicans are  notorious for not breaking party lines.  I know
>republicans who know nothing about issues but do know that they will
>only vote Republican.  That kind of blind loyalty is far scarier than
>any liberal idea I may have.

And Democrats have had the same level of thought for far longer in this 
country, particularly in the state of Georgia.  As for 'thinking', so far 
you've managed to spout misinformed rhetoric, but have given no evidence of 
rational thought.

> >
> > Two years from last Tuesday you will have the power to get rid of EVERY
> > SINGLE MEMBER of the house of representatives. By constitutional
> > mandate, _every_single_dollar_that_is_spent_ must originate as a bill in
> > the house. Yet, every two years you and the rest of the country send 90%
> > or more of those people back to write new budgets...  Wake UP!! The
> > authors of the constitution set this up this way for a reason, a reason
> > that was much more obvious under our original scheme of elections
> > (Senators were never intended to be elected by you, they were supposed
> > to be elected by your state house of representatives..  in 1914 this was
> > changed by constitutional amendment) The house is there to represent
> > YOU! The senate represents your State, and, might I add, you don't
> > actually even elect the president.. in fact, you have no constitutional
> > right to elect the president, and the founding fathers didn't create
> > that system by accident.  Your only constitutionaly given right to
> > representation is in the House! Educate yourself, USE YOUR RIGHTS!
>
>And on that I think we agree.  I rarely have voted for encumbants.  One
>day I hope that liberal ceases to be a dirty word and people realize you
>can have compassion for your fellow Americans and you can want everyone
>to share in the enormous wealth of this country.

Fine, USE YOUR OWN DAMNED MONEY.  But when you vote to use MY money, you 
are voting
to threaten me with deadly force unless I fork over that money, which puts 
you in the same category as an armed robber.

James

> >
> > -G
> >
> > P.p.s. If people would stop spouting lies I'd shut up but apparently I'm
> > not sinking in to some of you who seem to care. I really _want_ to stop
> > this thread.. I really do.
>
>What did I lie about. And I just ask you to stop complaining about
>paying your taxes.  I think political discourse is healthy and something
>completely lacking for the last 20 something years
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 12:15, Jeff Rose wrote:
> > > I love to hear the right wing conservative "fortunate" ones whine about
> > > their taxes.  Boo friggin hoo.  We all have to support our country and
> > > our government.  Just pay your damn taxes and shut up. If we had a flat
> > > tax,  then there would be no discussion, we'd all pay the same
> > > percentage.  Then again you "fortunate" ones couldn't avoid paying YOUR
> > > share.  Maybe only liberals are smart enough to realize that taxes are a
> > > necessary evil.  And that if we all pitch in our fair share, then the
> > > country remains solvent.  And furthermore, there have only been a
> > > handful of true liberals in Congress the past 20 years.  This government
> > > has been dominated by right wing Conservatives and moderate
> > > conservatives since the 70's.  If you want to blame someone, blame
> > > yourself.  You voted for these right wing conservative bozos who value
> > > corporate freedom above individual freedom.  Now you and I are reaping
> > > the rewards of Reaganomics.
> > >     Any entity that doesn't pay taxes should have no influence in US laws
> > > or policies.  A person that avoids paying taxes should not be allowed to
> > > vote.  A corporation that doesn't pay taxes should not be allowed to
> > > lobby congress or give money to political campaigns.  You can't reap the
> > > rewards of this economy without taking some of the tax burden.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 11:33, Terry Lee Tucker wrote:
> > > > I had intended to stay out of this; however, your comments are exactly
> > > > correct and you have quite effectively summed up the entire situation.
> > > > Would you run for office? I'll vote for ya  :^)
> > > >
> > > > F. Grant Robertson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Did you not read what I replied to you?  GE as an entity may have paid
> > > > >no actual tax but, the shareholders and employees paid taxes on the
> > > > >dividends and wages they were paid.  Even Jack Welch, paid taxes.. and
> > > > >believe you me he paid quite alot of them.
> > > > >
> > > > >If you eliminated personal income tax, and forced the corporations to
> > > > >pay for the burdens of the federal government, you would not 
> create any
> > > > >net difference in where the money came from. You would only create the
> > > > >illusion that individuals pay no tax..  The reality is quite the
> > > > >contrary though, as people who earn money (consumers) are the ones who
> > > > >provide the income to the corporation, they are in turn the ones who
> > > > >bear the burden of any tax, regardless of who is technically 
> liable for
> > > > >it under the tax code.
> > > > >
> > > > >The myth of corporate taxes is only a device used to make you as a 
> voter
> > > > >think that you are being relieved of the burden. the end result of any
> > > > >tax is money _you_ earned through work or investment is confiscated at
> > > > >the point of a gun by the federal government. It makes absolutely no
> > > > >difference who signs the check, it's coming out of _your_ pocket.
> > > > >
> > > > >The only exception comes if you are one of the "unfortunate" 
> people who
> > > > >the liberals have relieved of their own tax burden by shifting that
> > > > >burden to those who are "fortunate". The end goal of the Democrats 
> is to
> > > > >eliminate the direct, visible tax burden on the lower and middle class
> > > > >so that they think they are getting a deal and a free ride. However,
> > > > >this idea breaks down once transfered from paper to practice 
> because of
> > > > >the principles I've outlined above. Any income for the federal
> > > > >government _must_ come from GDP. When you expand your thoughts to
> > > > >visualize this larger picture, and remove individuals and corporations
> > > > >from view (by taking all as a whole, hence the concept of GDP or Gross
> > > > >Domestic Product) it becomes crystal clear. More money in federal 
> income
> > > > >directly translates to less free capital in the open economy.  If you
> > > > >ran the numbers and expressed the yearly federal budget as a 
> percentage
> > > > >of GDP, you'd find that the total tax burden is growing at a rate 
> beyond
> > > > >that of the growth of GDP.  This by definition is an impossible 
> cycle to
> > > > >continue, as eventually, all of GDP becomes the sole property of
> > > > >government..  and that by definition is the economics of communism.
> > > > >
> > > > >It's plain and simple, it's right there in front of you but you refuse
> > > > >to see it.
> > > > >
> > > > >-G
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 10:42, James P. Kinney III wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>On Wed, 2002-11-13 at 10:01, Brian J. Dowd wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Ok...my blood has finally reached the boiling point...
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>The only thing you left out was to close the tax loopholes
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>Since all tax "loopholes" are congressional laws initiated by 
> the House
> > > > >>>and passed by both
> > > > >>>the House and the Senate. And since both houses have been almost 
> totally
> > > > >>>under the control of Demorats for the past 48 years...What, 
> exactly, is
> > > > >>>your thesis?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>The process of paying taxes requires money. It has always seemed 
> to me
> > > > >>that since corporations are an artificial entity whose existence is
> > > > >>solely for the accumulation of money, they should be required to 
> chip in
> > > > >>as I am required to chip in. I have always viewed taxes as the 
> means for
> > > > >>funding the processes we, as a collective people, want to see done.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I place the blame on the current loopholes that allowed GE to earn
> > > > >>billions and pay $0 tax squarely on the greed of the people that make
> > > > >>the rules and the greed of the people that asked for the rules to be
> > > > >>made.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>that allow
> > > > >>>>corporation to earn billions and pay no taxes. GE, Enron, and 
> several
> > > > >>>>others have managed to avoid paying taxes on the billions they 
> earned in
> > > > >>>>profits
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>Corporations are figments of lawyers' imaginations and corporate 
> taxes
> > > > >>>are figments of liberals' dreams. Corporations are totally owned by
> > > > >>>shareholders, ie: *people*, who then wind up paying the taxes on 
> any
> > > > >>>imputed profits. Any tax actually paid by corporations merely 
> serves to
> > > > >>>raise the production costs of its goods so that all  its 
> customers wind
> > > > >>>up paying this hidden tax when they buy its products.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>If you really want to learn about (not just argue about) the
> > > > >>>ramifications of "corporate taxes" please give 
> http://www.fairtax.org a
> > > > >>>few minutes of your time after you calm down.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>I have read much from that site before. And I still believe very
> > > > >>strongly that an entity whose only reason for existence is the 
> financial
> > > > >>conquest of a market should be part of the funding process for 
> the goods
> > > > >>and services that the government attempts to provide to the entire
> > > > >>population. As I see it, much of the current system of rules and
> > > > >>policies and processes exist to benefit that direct class of 
> artificial
> > > > >>people. So, since they do have pockets lined with gold, why 
> should they
> > > > >>not financially support the system that allows them to thrive here
> > > > >>better than anywhere else in the world.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>>while our schools were cramming 35 kids into a trailer called a
> > > > >>>>classroom in front of a single teacher who is supposed to train 
> these
> > > > >>>>kids to become good employees of these companies.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>I'd seriously like to see your references to studies which 
> correlate
> > > > >>>class size or classroom construction methods to SAT scores or 
> some other
> > > > >>>measure of students' depth of knowledge. I will read your info 
> after I
> > > > >>>calm down. ;-)
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>I teach, for one source of data. The direct evidence is getting 
> harder
> > > > >>to come by as a layman. But some plugging on the web shows that the
> > > > >>schools with smaller class sizes will, on average, have better
> > > > >>performing students than schools with larger class sizes.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>It really is all about investment. Some areas of the country are 
> willing
> > > > >>to invest more into their schools than others. The immediate 
> payback is
> > > > >>bragging rights based on test scores. The long term payback is a 
> better
> > > > >>educated population with higher lifetime earning potential to 
> fill the
> > > > >>coffers of government with their tax money.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>The reference to trailers is not a slap on building style. It is an
> > > > >>attack on the poor planning and budgetary woes of many school 
> systems.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>It is well known in the education profession that the closer a 
> class can
> > > > >>get to the one-on-one mentor/student scenario found in graduate 
> school,
> > > > >>the higher the learning rate becomes. As society moves towards using
> > > > >>more technology, the total amount of knowledge needed by an 
> individual
> > > > >>to be an active participant in this society is increasing.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>So we have class sizes mandated by non-teachers in Georgia to be 32
> > > > >>students to one teacher maximum. This number has been chosen as 
> the best
> > > > >>trade-off between teaching paradigms and budgetary concerns.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I am still looking for a full-time job. But not in Georgia. Or 
> anywhere
> > > > >>in the south, for that matter.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>--
> > > > >>James P. Kinney III   \Changing the mobile computing world/
> > > > >>President and CEO      \          one Linux user         /
> > > > >>Local Net Solutions,LLC \           at a time.          /
> > > > >>770-493-8244             \.___________________________./
> > > > >>
> > > > >>GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics)
> > > > >><jkinney at localnetsolutions.com>
> > > > >>Fingerprint = 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---
> > > > >This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
> > > > >See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems 
> should be
> > > > >sent to listmaster at ale dot org.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Sparta, NC 28675 USA
> > > > 336.372.6812
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
> > > > See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems 
> should be
> > > > sent to listmaster at ale dot org.
> > > >
> > > --
> > > Jeff Rose
> > >
> > > jojerose at mindspring.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
> > > See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems 
> should be
> > > sent to listmaster at ale dot org.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>--
>Jeff Rose
>
>jojerose at mindspring.com
>
>
>
>
>---
>This message has been sent through the ALE general discussion list.
>See http://www.ale.org/mailing-lists.shtml for more info. Problems should be
>sent to listmaster at ale dot org.



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